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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogDoc View Post
    I don’t recall asking anyone’s permission for anything.
    If you read what I posted, you’ll see that I was agreeing with you that this thread is likely much ado about nothing for us based on the wording of the letter.

    I did mention being interested in LawDog’s opinion but mostly because I thought his take on the letter would be more interesting than the posts of legally-illiterate folks bashing sheeple-brained Fudds and getting into a froth about something that apparently has nothing to do with the SI folding brace or with sheeple-brained Funds contacting the ATF.
    You are though. You think you are being clever in seeking validation from another source but aren't considering secondary or tertiary effects. What if you asked a lawyer for permission and they don't grasp the anything but subtle sublelty of the situation and decide to write the BATF for permission for you? Things could end up in the exact same place.

    If anyone reading this doesn't understand the nuance of the situation please do the rest of us a favor; sell all your guns and spend the rest of your days watching the price is right. You are part of the problem.
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  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    NWFL
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    I see a bit of chicken little thinking going on.

    This is field of big boys rules. These rules are not consistent and in fact are arbitrary often according to political hysteria.
    I as a civilian that is not in the business will never be calling or writing the ATF for an opinion. I will look at their website if I feel it might have an answer, but I will not correspond with them.
    There is little concern for well established items relative to ATF approval like the shockwave and Tac-14 that come off the production lines of major firearms companies.
    The armbrace thing is not so secure. I would not buy from someone that turns them out in his garage. I would feel better when purchasing such to see a letter of ATF approval. If there is not one since I am buying it in good faith via legal channels of commerce the worst case scenario that I foresee is a recall/confiscation by the feds and such would not be the end of the world for me. I would turn it or destroy it.
    I have other guns.
    The world has never been a safe place and there is an old saying is that you are damned if you do and damned if you do not. Use the best information that you have and then decide.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
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  3. #33
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    May 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushinto View Post
    I think the difference is that those AKs are pistols and the overall length does not matter.

    The shotguns, or shotguns that are called firearms, are different in that they can never be pistols.

    But then again, in ATF's Disneyland any thing is possible.

    --ML


    RIFLE NOT PISTOL
    FOLDED LENGTH 25 3/4"
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    South-Central Idaho
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    3,200
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkface View Post
    You are though. You think you are being clever in seeking validation from another source but aren't considering secondary or tertiary effects. What if you asked a lawyer for permission and they don't grasp the anything but subtle sublelty of the situation and decide to write the BATF for permission for you? Things could end up in the exact same place.
    Yeah...I could definitely see LawDog doing that. ROFLMAO


    The letter specifically says it relates to smooth bore weapons.
    AKs aren’t smooth bore. Why are we talking about them?

    The letter specifically mentions spacers intended to make the weapon a shoulder weapon.
    The SI folder has no such spacers. Why are we talking about it?

    Dorkface, I wasn’t inviting LawDog’s input so I could have permission to keep my stuff. I was interested in it because I thought it would agree with my interpretation of the letter (and I assumed yours as well) that it had no bearing on the SI product.

    Reflexively getting off the X and point shooting is a great tactic in a fight, but in a discussion it’s more useful to figure out what the other guy is saying before you go at him. You may actually find you’re both saying the same thing.
    Last edited by DogDoc; 08-21-2019 at 07:10 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogDoc View Post
    The letter specifically says it relates to smooth bore weapons.
    AKs aren’t smooth bore. Why are we talking about them?

    The one written for the AR Pistol relates specifically to these as well bro.


    The letter specifically mentions spacers intended to make the weapon a shoulder weapon.
    The SI folder has no such spacers. Why are we talking about it?


    I know...but if I said that nobody would believe me. It also states VFG and Two handed use and all that Jazz... Just a matter of time before some Cub Scout two finger salutes a letter about it to the ATF.

    Dorkface, I wasn’t inviting LawDog’s input so I could have permission to keep my stuff. I was interested in it because I thought it would agree with my interpretation of the letter (and I assumed yours as well) that it had no bearing on the SI product.

    Reflexively getting off the X and point shooting is a great tactic in a fight, but in a discussion it’s more useful to figure out what the other guy is saying before you go at him. You may actually find you’re both saying the same thing.

    Yep
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #36
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    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #37
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    Aug 2014
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    Dust settled yet? Where are we?
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  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post

    RIFLE NOT PISTOL
    FOLDED LENGTH 25 3/4"
    Sorry for my assumption, and thanks for the clarification.

    However, that brings up an interesting point that I once debated with ATF.

    Federal law defines a short barreled rifle as, "a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;" It defines a short barreled shotgun as, "a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;."

    I had a Marble Game Getter, which is an over / under shotgun, with 18" barrels and a top folding stock. The overall length was about 24". I took it to sell at a gun show, circa 1980. The resident ATF agent told me that it was "illegal" because the OL was less than 26". I told him that the weapon was manufactured in that configuration (in 1912), so it did not fall under the 26" rule. He did not agree. I agreed to take it back to my car and I guess I was lucky in that. I later called the NFA branch and they said I was right. Later, just for the hell of it, I called my local ATF office and they said that they thought I was wrong, but was not 100% sure.

    So, I would say based on my internet law degree and the plain reading of the law, that if those rifles were "manufactured" with an OL under 26" it would be OK. But if they were "modified" that way, it would not be OK.

    I am really tired of ATF's shit. Even my ex-wife was more consistent, and gave better ****.

    -- ML

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    549
    Quote Originally Posted by Mushinto View Post
    Sorry for my assumption, and thanks for the clarification.

    However, that brings up an interesting point that I once debated with ATF.

    Federal law defines a short barreled rifle as, "a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;" It defines a short barreled shotgun as, "a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;."

    I had a Marble Game Getter, which is an over / under shotgun, with 18" barrels and a top folding stock. The overall length was about 24". I took it to sell at a gun show, circa 1980. The resident ATF agent told me that it was "illegal" because the OL was less than 26". I told him that the weapon was manufactured in that configuration (in 1912), so it did not fall under the 26" rule. He did not agree. I agreed to take it back to my car and I guess I was lucky in that. I later called the NFA branch and they said I was right. Later, just for the hell of it, I called my local ATF office and they said that they thought I was wrong, but was not 100% sure.

    So, I would say based on my internet law degree and the plain reading of the law, that if those rifles were "manufactured" with an OL under 26" it would be OK. But if they were "modified" that way, it would not be OK.

    I am really tired of ATF's shit. Even my ex-wife was more consistent, and gave better ****.

    -- ML
    Gotta love an agency tasked with promulgating rules and regulations that cannot seem to figure out how to do so consistently. But then again, welcome to human lawmaking institutions.

    I'm exactly halfway through my first week of law school classes, and boy has that come out in spades already...

  10. #40
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    Jan 2010
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    Melbourne, Florida
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    That is awesome.

    --ML

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