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  1. #1
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    Default A CAUTIONARY TALE FOR CCW

    This is an interesting article by Greg Ellifritz. Read the excerpt as an example of content. When you have time read the entire article and then assess vis-a-vis the flowchart.

    "Our robber (a theft involving force is classified as a robbery in my state) got the bright idea that she needed some help. She began yelling “Rape! Rape! He’s raping me!” as loud as she could. Her cries were heard by a man driving by. That man had a gun. The gunman parked his car in the middle of the road, drew his gun and came to the assistance of the “rape victim”.

    He pointed his gun at the loss prevention employee (who happened to be a part-time police officer as well) and said “Let her go or I’m going to shoot you in the head!”

    A CAUTIONARY TALE FOR CCW

    Here is the flowchart for the search-challenged

    suarez-flowchart-deadly-force-0819.jpg
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Eastern Kansas - KC Metro
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    Wow, close to a real disaster on several levels. An Innocent person is darned hard to determine when one jumps in the middle of the fray. What a shame to have a loss prevention officer shot due to "mistaken identity". Stuff they don't teach in a 4 hour CCW class. Bet SI does however.
    Deus , et Libertas

    DPS, CRG-2, CRG-3
    Dynamics of the Kalashnikov, Advanced Kalashnikov Rifle Gunfighting

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
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    128
    CCW bystander didn't have a clear articulable perception of the incident. The write-up did a good job of illustrating how the prosecutor would challenge the bystander's perception. Bystander also closed the distance for no reason with an unloaded gun. Bystander might be better served putting away the gun and just calling 911 next time...


    Loss prevention officer might want to deploy his badge sooner next time to avoid reaching in his pocket for it. Officer was pretty sharp to catch the fact the bystander had an unloaded snub.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Western WA
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    Well that was quite the CF.

    From the perspective of the CCW guy, the world is made a much better place by choosing to mind one's own business unless one has a clear and articulable perception of the events. We may of course be justified even if our perception is wrong, but we still have to think like a reasonable person and filter what we see through our bullshit detector.

    I'm willing to draw when I see clear evidence of evil actions taking place. Of course not every event is black and white...but it needs to be pretty damn dark grey before I get involved. Even if there is shooting going on (maybe especially if there is shooting), if it's not clear to me who the bad guy is, I want no part of it.

    Honestly the way I picture this event, as the CCW guy I'd probably just keep driving. What do I see? Some guy in a tshirt and sweat pants wrestling with...well I'm sure she was clearly dressed and purported herself as an upstanding member of society {sarcasm off}. This spectacle falls under what I call someone else's problem. I can hear her yelling rape but can see that is clearly not the case. I really have no idea what is truly going on if I roll up on this and I'm not going to risk my time or money getting involved.

    At most in this case I'd stop and call the cops. I probably wouldn't even get out of the vehicle.

    Also, I think there is a very different judgment process between if I/family/friends are the focus of violence or not. If there's a gun turning towards me or my family, that's a much more immediate and high stakes event than something occurring between strangers.

    Very different outcome if the security guard was beating on my mom for instance.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Pistol Groundfighting, Kansas
    Pistol Groundfighting, Washington

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar01 View Post
    CCW bystander didn't have a clear articulable perception of the incident.
    Think of how much useless bullshit would be averted if people did not engage unless they had a clear and articulable perception of what was going on? All stuff we delve into in the Killing Within The Law Series
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    Life is orders of magnitude better when you mind your own business.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Pistol Groundfighting, Kansas
    Pistol Groundfighting, Washington

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    577
    So much info we don't have but, to me a woman yelling rape out in the open, next to a busy street, probably isn't being raped.....
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    “Adversity introduces a man to himself.”

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Eastern Kansas - KC Metro
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    849
    Be an Good Witness and MYOB!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    Life is orders of magnitude better when you mind your own business.
    Deus , et Libertas

    DPS, CRG-2, CRG-3
    Dynamics of the Kalashnikov, Advanced Kalashnikov Rifle Gunfighting

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    449
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    Life is orders of magnitude better when you mind your own business.
    Bumper sticker material - or at least highly quotable!

    geezer john

  10. #10
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    I am not saying to ignore everything not specifically related to you. I am sure THAT is not what we want to do collectively. In this instance, the CCW Good Guy jumped in without knowing what was happening and without understanding his role. If what we see shocks humanity on it's face...and any sane man with half a brain's imagination could express what he saw and the urgency that it created, then "minding your business and being a good witness" is not the moral or appropriate path. But lacking in that...

    So let's change it up. The girl is a pre-teen, naked, and bleeding from the face, and the man is a muscular tattooed, prison-looking guy and he is trying to get her into the trunk of a car.

    Next change. The girl is a grandmother type, looks like she has been roughed up, and the man is dressed as an urban gang member.

    Next change. The grandmother has two children with her and the race is different from the seeming attacker who is accompanied by two others.

    See how dynamics of appearance change. You won't always have a crystal clear perfect briefing on what is going on, but you can extrapolate from the given information. If 1+1 is 2 and 1+2 is 3, some will be able to determine what 1+3 is without needing to do the work. The key is can you use your words to relay what you saw, what it looked like and why morally and tactically you could have done nothing else.

    If it was you daughter, wife or mother...you would not want Brent, Greg, Jon or I to simply shrug and say "nunmybizness".
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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