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  1. #1
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    Default Discuss from both sides?

    Greenville County Sheriff's Office
    Officer Involved Shooting - June 14, 2019


    I would like to submit this video for discussion regarding what was right/wrong from both sides (homeowner and deputy). How should this be handled, from both sides of the door?

    And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

    Steven Spaugh

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    5,436
    I'm putting most of my faith in the accuracy of the emotional statements in the heat of the moment. They're consistent with the video and ring true to me.

    The deputy didn't have to shoot; he had plenty of room to get out of the line of fire and slow things down. That, though, is an unrealistic expectation for someone trained and with the mindset of most LE. Once the homeowner turned with the pistol, shots were pretty well guaranteed to be fired. Through the glass, I couldn't make out anything that screamed "homeowner" as opposed to "home invader" which had to be in the back of the Deputy's mind in responding to a panic alarm (as opposed to an improper code or simple perimeter trip). So on the LE end: response to a call where armed bad guys are a possible cause. Sees shape, illuminates it, sees pointing gun, stimulus/response.

    The homeowner heard people outside his rural home and went to investigate, armed. He probably never thought the problem through to see the advantages of not displaying his weapon at the start of things. Unless you plan for it and rehearse, it's exceptionally difficult to turn towards a light/sound and not have your weapon go where you're looking. But it should be, since not everyone who knocks on your door warrants having a gun pointed at him. Still, I can't fault him for having the gun when he went to investigate. Neither would I fault him if he just stayed upstairs with the gun: not everyone who knocks on your door deserves an answer.

    Summary, this is a clash of well-meaning, mostly reasonable people where circumstances made the outcome what it was. I don't see malice, stupidity or negligence on either side.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    Summarized as regrettable but inevitable. The gun community likes to point out such events to castigate the police without ever acknowledging the ineptitude of those the police shoot mistakenly. Your rights to own guns and your rights to be as unskilled and unprepared as you wish will be cold comfort if you do something stupid and get killed for it. In today's world, its not about your rights or about anything else people like to prattle about. It is about your ability to think and be mentally switched on and alert. Fail to do that and be that and you are worthless to everyone, and a danger to yourself.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    931
    This is my old agency, been gone 10 years now. The bad thing is they originally stated the home owner opened the door and pointed the firearm at the deputy. They had to walk that back when the body cam clearly showed that was not the case. The news media is trying to make it a police cover up. The only thing worse would be if the victim was a person of color. then it would hit the fan. I think it was a definite screw up on the deputy"s part, but I wasn't there. The home owner is also at fault, blue on blue situation. Regrettable.
    I am in a sunny place full of shady people

  5. #5
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    If more people read what we have written on the subject, I expect fewer good guys would be mistaken as bad guys and shot by the police. IDK...maybe a "Good Guy With Gun" hat would have saved him?
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,168
    I don't know if I would say this was inevitable.

    As a homeowner, if I hear someone prowling around my home and shining lights in my window, I might investigate. When I have gone to investigate 'bumps' in the night I'm usually very slow. I take time at ambush points in my home to listen and smell and look. I don't use my weaponlight. I try to maximize cover and concealment as much as possible. I have to wonder if this guy had been moving differently, would he have been shot?

    And certainly the right thing to do when illuminated like that is to MOVE.

    So having a homeowner vs cop standoff might have been inevitable. But the homeowner didn't have to get shot.

  7. #7
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    Mine

    Quote Originally Posted by apamburn View Post
    As a homeowner, if I hear someone prowling around my home and shining lights in my window, I might investigate.

    Do you call 911 before going to do so?

    When I have gone to investigate 'bumps' in the night I'm usually very slow. I take time at ambush points in my home to listen and smell and look. I don't use my weaponlight. I try to maximize cover and concealment as much as possible. I have to wonder if this guy had been moving differently, would he have been shot?

    Likely? The guy in the story was stumbling around Zimmerman style shining the light around.

    And certainly the right thing to do when illuminated like that is to MOVE.

    So having a homeowner vs cop standoff might have been inevitable. But the homeowner didn't have to get shot.

    Well...the police are not going to investigate the 911 call like Mister Rogers...they are going there to kick ass. Present your ass and it will get kicked.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #8
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    Mar 2014
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    Kansas City, MO
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    From a non cop point of view, I see it as the home owners screw up. I mean really, how many burglars are going to light you up from outside the home!? Inside I could see item but from outside! The cop reacted to a threat, he didn't know if the person pointing a gun was the home owner or a bad guy inside the home.

    The home owner offed up on this one.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    142
    My rural patrolling experience was much more rural than this.. So my perspective my be a little different.

    1. Encounters with armed citizens is much greater. While concealed carry may be less, firearms in vehicles and residences is almost a given.
    2. Knocking on a door after midnight WILL trigger an armed response from the homeowner. Expect it. Plan for it.
    3. I would not have run up on that house silent. I would run my lights to give the occupants a visual cue.
    4. I would not have boxed myself in on that porch. Scan surroundings,knock, announce, create distance.
    5. I would not have closed the gap and shot thru the window. I would have moved off the X first.

  10. #10
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    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Mine
    At our home, if our security alarm went off, yes, 911 call happened. Otherwise, no. It was rare, but when it did happen my SOP was to get gun and go to top of stairs. My next steps depended on a number of factors.

    At any rate, reading back I think my post was unclear. When I said "having a homeowner vs cop standoff might have been inevitable. But the homeowner didn't have to get shot" I think it sounds like I'm saying "the police officer didn't have to shoot him". That's not what I meant. Man pointed gun at cop, cop shoots man. That's straightforward. Perhaps the officer could have approached differently but I'm not really qualified to comment on that (never BTDT).

    What I meant was that the homeowner could have acted differently and not been shot - by not stumbling around and by reacting properly (get off the X) when he was illuminated. I'd like to think my first reaction would have been to move to my right towards the outside corner of that room instead of standing there looking out the glass waiting to get perforated.

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