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  1. #1
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    Default Hammer-Fist Knockout From The Bottom Position

    I am always interested in Strikes that don`t use the legs and hips to generate power.

    Studying Niko Prices Knockout of Randy Brown at UFC Fight Night 113 I am wondering if the key to the KO was due to the fact that Brown`s head was trapped by Niko`s foot.

    Usually if the opponent is in the Top Position the head is free to move back and forth with the Strikes, taking away some of the Power of the Strikes.

    By Trapping the head with the foot the head absorbs all of the power generated by the Strikes. Almost getting the same effect you would have Stomping the head, the head having nowhere to go, minus the damage that is added by having an unyielding surface underneath the head.

    Am I correct in my assumptions/am I missing key elements that made these Strikes effective.

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  2. #2
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    Knockouts generally occur due to the brain bouncing around in the skull... I didn't see that fight, but from what you're describing it seems like controlling the head in that manner would lessen the likelihood of getting KO'd because the head isn't moving as much, so the brain isn't bouncing as much.

    KO's can be weird things. You're not supposed to be able to KO someone with punches while being mounted, yet I've seen it happen.


    "If you find yourself in a fair fight you failed to properly prepare..."

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  3. #3
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    O,
    So I had it the wrong way around.

    The other though I had was that maybe it was down to the Strikes being accurate hitting the right spot on the chin, not simply swing wildly and missing most of the Strikes. And doing so repeatedly in a short amount of time. The Knock due to the accumulitive effect of the Strikes.

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    Elfie
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  4. #4
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    Compare fists to bullets. Some bullets work better than others...they move faster, or have more mass, or the design of the bullet makes it work better inside the body (terminal ballistics).

    But all those details matter not a dam bit if the bullet doesn't hit the target. More important than anything is hitting the target.


    Going back to fists...lots of variables go into a knockout. But the biggest thing all knockouts have in common? The fist actually landed on the target.


    One of the problems of tournament karate - only one hand is being used. The format of the rules, and the resulting distances, drive that. Boxing is the same...you can't grab with those gloves.
    Firing a punch out in space on a moving target is hard to do. Boxers, who are very good punchers, have a very low hitting percentage.

    In real life karate, the one hand grabs and stabilizes the target, the other hand hits it. (I do a drill in class that makes this abundantly clear...with a hand on the opponent, you can hit him even with your eyes closed, even while he's bobbing and weaving.) Compare baseball vs T-ball. Which one is easier to hit?

    Stabilizing the target can be done with other parts of the body too. Think of this like a hammer and tongs...you hold the target still and then pound it.

    Proprioception - perception or awareness of the position and movement of the body.


    Power generation without "using the hips" is a big topic, and it's important. But hitting something in the first place is most important.
    Brent Yamamoto
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter76 View Post
    Knockouts generally occur due to the brain bouncing around in the skull... I didn't see that fight, but from what you're describing it seems like controlling the head in that manner would lessen the likelihood of getting KO'd because the head isn't moving as much, so the brain isn't bouncing as much.
    That starts to get into the propeller head realm.

    Going back to bullets - The only control I have over terminal ballistics is choosing a good bullet based on the best info I have. But once the bullet leaves the barrel, we have no control over what that bullet does or how the target reacts to it. The best thing we can do is simply hit the target.


    I have no control over what my opponent's brain does. My job is to develop a strong strike (punch, hammer, whatever) and then deliver it accurately. Hit hard, hit a lot. That is most easily accomplished when I stabilize the target in some way.

    This is another reason that competition is a poor exemplar for fighting and self-protection in the real world. I don't watch a lot of boxing, MMA, etc. but I've seen enough of it. Most of the strikes are misses, and a lot are glancing blows. And a lot are weak punches even when they land accurately.

    Stabilize the target and hit it hard until it breaks. The knockout will take care of itself.
    Brent Yamamoto
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    Boxing is the same...you can't grab with those gloves.
    Firing a punch out in space on a moving target is hard to do. Boxers, who are very good punchers, have a very low hitting percentage.
    Boxing is a bad analogy IMO... For one you can grab wearing gloves. It happens quite often tho the rules prohibit it. For a better example look at Muay Thai. But beyond that and in regards to hitting percentages, I think it's important to keep in mind that when two boxers meet, especially at the pro-level, they're usually pretty on par with each other in terms of skill level. Now put that same boxer in the ring under the same rules with a street thug and watch his hit percentage skyrocket.


    "If you find yourself in a fair fight you failed to properly prepare..."

    "History is the autobiography of a madman..."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    That starts to get into the propeller head realm.

    Going back to bullets - The only control I have over terminal ballistics is choosing a good bullet based on the best info I have. But once the bullet leaves the barrel, we have no control over what that bullet does or how the target reacts to it. The best thing we can do is simply hit the target.


    I have no control over what my opponent's brain does. My job is to develop a strong strike (punch, hammer, whatever) and then deliver it accurately. Hit hard, hit a lot. That is most easily accomplished when I stabilize the target in some way.

    This is another reason that competition is a poor exemplar for fighting and self-protection in the real world. I don't watch a lot of boxing, MMA, etc. but I've seen enough of it. Most of the strikes are misses, and a lot are glancing blows. And a lot are weak punches even when they land accurately.

    Stabilize the target and hit it hard until it breaks. The knockout will take care of itself.
    I'm not disputing what you say, but what you're arguing is what we can control (accurate striking) vs what we can't (physiological consequences). Both come into play...


    "If you find yourself in a fair fight you failed to properly prepare..."

    "History is the autobiography of a madman..."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter76 View Post
    I'm not disputing what you say, but what you're arguing is what we can control (accurate striking) vs what we can't (physiological consequences). Both come into play...
    Absolutely true, both come into play. But I'm oriented towards practicality. I have no control over the other guy's physiological responses, and everyone is different. Some people have skulls that may as well be solid bone (no brain no pain).

    Practically speaking, how I think he might physiologically respond is interesting, but it does nothing to change what I plan on doing. I only know how effective my strikes were after they have landed.

    I can control my preparation (training, strength, accuracy, power, fluidity of responses, etc.) to maximize my potential. I can do my best when stuff kicks off to pick the best possible targets, I can do my best to act/react in ways that give me the highest likelihood of landing shots, and of course do my best to strike accurately and with power. But I really have no control over what the physiological response is.

    Thus, hit hard and often.

    This is really no different than when we say "shoot them to the ground". We do what we planned on doing until the threat has stopped. Some threats last longer than others because their physiology is different, but practically speaking it doesn't change the plan.
    Brent Yamamoto
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  9. #9
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    Their experience as well as physiology. Those that have taken legit strikes before will react totally differently from someone who hasn't. While you might put them to sleep, you also might not, if not you're going to have some trouble and need to plan accordingly. As Brent says, land accurate strikes well and often, it aint a sport on the street.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    Their experience as well as physiology.
    YES. Something else we have no control over. And unless we know them, we have no foreknowledge of their experience, other than what we can tell from clues they give us.

    Those that have taken legit strikes before will react totally differently from someone who hasn't. While you might put them to sleep, you also might not, if not you're going to have some trouble and need to plan accordingly.
    Big yes there also.
    This reminds me of the discussion we had in Prescott regarding control of distance.

    Gabe and I strongly made the point that in a reactive circumstance, we have no control over distance. We have control over what we choose to do. Our choices may increase the distance, but the other guy has a say too...so we have no control over it. This might seem like nitpicking but it's an important point.

    Lots of details and information and theories are interesting to discuss but when it comes down to it I'm much more interested in what I can practically do. What things do I have control over? What things can I reliably influence? What things are completely out of my hands (and can thus ignore because they aren't going to help me in any practical way)?
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

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