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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Incidentally Papa, you do not seem the sort to focus on shuffleboard and day drinking once you are classified as Ronin. Should you be interested in teaching the Killing Within The Law material in your area of the nation once you are on your own, let me know.
    I'm honored that you would consider me. I will let you know.

    As for the other, that way lies madness.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 2, 16. And a wakeup.

  2. #22
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    Nov 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    One of the emerging issues in LE is that there's a difference between purely crazy people and criminals. Therefore, LE has to be able to show a difference in treatment. Consider Graham and the three prongs: the severity of the crime in question, whether the individual poses an immediate threat to LE or others, and whether the individual is trying to escape or is resisting arrest. For the loons out there, you immediately lose on two counts; there is no crime and no arrest to resist. (Don't try and come up with pedantic crimes like disorderly conduct or blocking a street: the judge will scold you.) There's a related principle in that the state is not allowed to create it's own exigency and respond to it. Here, but for the officers' approach, there would have been no attack. Notice that all the non-cops in the area were utterly unmolested.

    The law isn't fully formed in the area, but it's progressing in leaps and bounds, mostly through case law. Undoubtedly, whatever I say today will be obsolete in a few years.

    As to the flow chart, it's inapplicable. It's there for violent criminal attacks and not for the psychiatric or medical emergency. This called for distance, time and talk. Maybe even walk away. (I've done that, leaving crazy dude or screaming drunk to his own devices, away from the public.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    That is a POV I hadn't considered. We tend to view everything through a certain lens, and you are correct...this requires a different lens. This was not really an attack of violence in the sense that we think of. Was the man potentially violent and deadly? Yes...but until the officers pressed the issue, he was not actually attacking anyone or actually threatening anyone.

    A crazy guy swinging a sword on a street corner by himself is not a threat and not really "shootable" by LE or you and me. If that same crazy is making overt attempts to close the gap and swing the sword INTO you, then it is a different matter altogether.

    You expressed that better than I did.
    And if YOUR OWN ACTIONS converted it from the guy on the street corner swinging the sword by himself, into the guy making overt attempts to swing the sword into you THEN you may have lost your justification and "protection" to use lethal force. If you are (partially) culpable in creating the Lethal Confrontation or in escalating the confrontation from Non-Lethal to Lethal then you may have lost your claim to a justified shooting.

    The "Not committing a Crime" aspect of the Flow Chart is just not enough. I believe the key is that you have an INNOCENT (intended) Victim with respect to the Confrontation. This includes you and anyone else that you choose to help. This Innocence obviously covers lawful presence, but goes much deeper. Ideally, the (intended) victim has no culpability at all in the Lethal encounter. The Victim is not completely innocent if they instigate, initiate, create, escalate, perpetuate, promulgate, or willingly participate in the confrontation.

    The Gentleman Warrior carries himself at all times in a manner that maintains this Innocence. If directly confronted with a potentially deadly adversary, he does not even need to think about “checking this box” – he knows he is an innocent intended victim. He can respond to the threat immediately and instinctively.

    With respect to using lethal Force to assist others, your Clear Articulable Perception must include the clear perception that the (intended) Victim(s) are INNOCENT with respect to the Event/Confrontation.

    Lethal Force is Justified if an Innocent Victim is threatened with the possibility of Serious Injury or Death. Done with Justification.

    You may tactically choose to engage, de-escalate, Exit/Escape, but pure Justification is met by those two criteria.

    I look forward to the August 24/25 Win the Aftermath class in Prescott....

  3. #23
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    It has to do with intent...and how you express it. You may easily wander onto the sword swinger and suddenly need to defend yourself from the incoming Katana. If you express that you did so intentionally for purposes of justifying your necessity to kill him, you created that event. If you were not paying attention and stumbled into it, that is another matter.

    The world is filled with grey areas and versions of interpretation. Your ability to understand justification, preclusion, and how the event flows from inception to investigation will allow you to express that which you wish to express and not give the wrong idea of what you saw and what you did.

    Lots of between the lines that will only be discussed in class.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #24
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    Mar 2013
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    Not to wander too much but the state of Virginia makes the distinction in law.

    If you helped create a problem that leads to an otherwise legitimate self defense you may be considered to have committed an "excusable homicide". If you didn't help make the problem it is a "justified homicide".

  5. #25
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    Somehow I missed this one.

    Possible domestic with a consumer. Like Payne said, in these parts there are a couple of tools, some requirements, and a whole lot of concerns going on. The mental health game is complex but lets cover a few areas with some provisos that the MHMR community does like to think about.

    My first "certification" as a Mental Health Peace Officer was in 2001, I still use and teach SOME of those techniques ( Back then they were teaching you how to hunt tigers...... from a zookeepers perspective). Additionally I created the MHMR flowchart the entire region now uses to "Chart" the path of the consumer.

    Auntie Diane trying to shank you to escape from the robbery she committed, is treated the same as Auntie Diane trying to shank you because she perceives you to be the devil. This should go without saying and follows the chart but the immediate need to act to protect yourself or others.

    What happens with Auntie Diane in the moments leading up to it is where a different response might be merited and other tools utilized.

    Yes, we have a force progression, and yes we can jump the chain when we need to, how sympathetic our Grand Jury is will determine how we did. Though usually, at least in these parts they understand when LEO have to shoot someone.

    While we can jump the chain, whenever possible we use the LL tools, if nothing else it shows we are trying to do the right thing (remember that yelling stop resisting in the fight is merely theater for the cameras and crowd, your suspect usually cant hear or comprehend what you are saying the first 6-8 times you say it)

    On the mental health angle (here at least) you have an Emergency Warrantless Detention and an Emergency Detention Warrant, both being different from a Committal warrant. In the first instance the officer on scene makes the determination that the subject is an immediate danger to self or others and takes the individual into custody. We cant walk away from that. In the second instance, someone else has convinced a judge of the danger and they issue a warrant to do the same thing we were doing in the first instance.

    There are a few problems with the second instance. And where the pendulum is swinging with regard to MHMR issues. The ENTIRE code covering this is founded on the bedrock ideal that the least restrictive environment is used for the consumer. And rightfully so. Taking 4-8 hours to obtain a warrant and deliver it to LEO for execution kinda puts to bed the immediacy of the situation doesnt it.

    We almost never get those warrants anymore, and we rarely have to do a warrantless either. Usually (most of the time) we talk them into self committal (least restrictive environment) using a variety of verbal tools.

    What I take pains to point out and drive into my students (aside from communication skills) , is that ultimately, being crazy isnt illegal, and that when we act in these cases WE ARE MAKING A FOURTH AMENDMENT SEIZURE OF A CITIZEN FOR NON-CRIMINAL PURPOSES, and that we should think very carefully before we go to that level.

    Society continues to try to separate the two Criminal/Mental and give more authority to act to LEO (but treat them differently), I am concerned that they lose sight of the seizure part of this.

    Also we have that little part of the code that states it doesnt apply to addiction, or dementia (cant apply it to drunks, tweekers, or grandpas alzheimers)

    And when things escalate I might have a "good" shoot, but failed as a MPO to contain the situation.

    Here in the fifth circuit we arent as hampered as those in the ninth and tenth, thankfully.

    One of the exercises I use with my students, to give them a first hand idea of Auditory Hallucinations is to sit them in a chair (they are the consumer) and have a student to either side. Students to the left and right begin talk in a low voice to the "consumer" ,one is positive comments "i love you", "youre Wonderful" and the like. the other is "theyre gonna kill you", "where did that buffalo go", "your mom is dead" and the like .

    Now the fourth student who is the MPO in the exercise must try to communicate with the consumer while all this is going on. Cycle through the students and everyone gets an immersive experience in both sides of the equation, and is less likely to escalate without need.


    With regard to the SI flowchart, while we might not have the legal need to do so depending on the jurisdiction, we should always look at preclusion/de-escalation if possible, and showing it in the flowchart helps if for no other reason than a canny lawyer or focused prosecutor bringing the chart up in your trial (it is on the internet after all)

    This post might be a bit scattered as I havent had my coffee yet.
    Last edited by coastalcop; 07-31-2019 at 11:49 AM.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  6. #26
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    Aug 2014
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    One aspect we haven't discussed in detail is repeated contact with the same 10-98, sometimes multiple times in the same shift, but more often spread over a course of days, repeating cyclically as the meds are adjusted and/or neglected.

    Complacency is deadly here. When the agency is stretched thin or not fully staffed the tendency is to "advise" rather than request or accept backup. After all, it's just Aunt Diane again. Third time today, because "least restrictive means" results in release well before her issues are addressed.

    Beware the repeat 10-98 and that complacency. On any given day, Aunt Diane may decide that you are, if not Satan, at least one of his lesser demons. Be patient, wait for backup, and don't allow RPs to spin you up with "enhanced" versions of the incident designed to get her off their hands and into the ambulance.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 2, 16. And a wakeup.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    One aspect we haven't discussed in detail is repeated contact with the same 10-98, sometimes multiple times in the same shift, but more often spread over a course of days, repeating cyclically as the meds are adjusted and/or neglected.

    Complacency is deadly here. When the agency is stretched thin or not fully staffed the tendency is to "advise" rather than request or accept backup. After all, it's just Aunt Diane again. Third time today, because "least restrictive means" results in release well before her issues are addressed.

    Beware the repeat 10-98 and that complacency. On any given day, Aunt Diane may decide that you are, if not Satan, at least one of his lesser demons. Be patient, wait for backup, and don't allow RPs to spin you up with "enhanced" versions of the incident designed to get her off their hands and into the ambulance.
    THIS on several levels.

    My guys ONLY do a custodial detention on things THEY personally observe (the code allows for us to take testimony from others, but they tend to "forget" if things go pearshaped)


    Ofttimes they are released back into the wild with nothing more than a set of vitals being done.

    Like suicidal subjects. Remember suicide is just homicide inwardly directed, and it can convert outward in a microsecond. After all if they care so little for their own lives, how much less is yours worth to them.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  8. #28
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    Interesting terms today - "Consumer". I assume it is the development of the Police Customer Service model that was in its infancy during my term. First an invitation extended to Coastalcop as well...when you are ready...I would love to have you teach this KWTL stuff for us in your generalized and expanded AO.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #29
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    We used the radio designation 918 Man, or 918 Woman. And interchangeably with 5150. We looked at them as "suspects" until they were secured, or the call disposed of as advised, GOA or otherwise. Less elaborate than today. But the day in and day out contact with these 918s did create two factors.

    One was the expectation of the tired and burned out officer. "Oh...its just crazy Willie again...I will handle the call Code 4 (alone)". Dozens of contacts with Crazy Willie who uses drugs is always harmless (and whom nobody knows was a Vietnam Tunnel Rat with scores of confirmed knife kills). Then there is the one that reminds him of a special day and the rest we read about on Facebook.

    The other is that if Crazy Willie is always violent, always fights and assaults officers and always has a knife with him, well...that establishes a precedent for handling him that may be over the top for most 918 contacts due to prior knowledge.

    From a civilian perspective, the same can happen, but most likely, the first contact will be just that. An unknown party that you run into unexpectedly and the fight is on "suddenly and for no apparent reason", after which the next statement will be - "I had no time to do anything else...I thought I was going to die".

    But if Crazy Willie has assaulted you five or six times...or assaulted others that you know...and you have personal knowledge that he is always armed with a knife, and can verify this, you have a different situation when Willie lunges at you between cars. Even if Willie's unannounced intent was to wipe those imaginary tarantulas from your shirt, your foreknowledge of him and his violent tendency may serve as justification based n what you know and what you saw, and what you thought was about to happen to you.

    And even if its not a lethal force event, the same line of reasoning will serve when you use body weapons to defeat the 918. For example...Crazy Willie jumps out from the shadows as you walk to your car. You side kick him in the ribs, breaking several of them and drop him in his tracks. It turns out that one of those broken ribs damages something internally and he needs to go to the ICU.

    The same story will be told as if you shot him in the face, except that you used a more appropriate line of force. The flowchart justifies killing as well as other forms of physical damage.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Interesting terms today - "Consumer". I assume it is the development of the Police Customer Service model that was in its infancy during my term. First an invitation extended to Coastalcop as well...when you are ready...I would love to have you teach this KWTL stuff for us in your generalized and expanded AO.
    Thanks Gabe, that is something I have a real interest in when the time is right. George Carlin said it well with the progression from shell shock to PTSD, you can call a thing anything, it doesnt change what it is.

    We went from lunatic/Insane to mental health consumer, it didnt change the thing at all, but did suck all the immediacy out of the problem. It was MHMR (mental health mental retardation) that first coined the term here. We adopted the language because to get anything done (and taken seriously by the whitecoats) you have to speak the same jargon.



    Even the change from Retarded to Developmentally disabled or Developmentally Challenged doesnt change the condition.

    We are constantly changing definitions, Autism narrowly defined, to Autism Spectrum Disorder and a much larger pool by expanding the definition.

    Even the DSM removing some paraphilias and changing definitions to meet a narrow portion of societies demands.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

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