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  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    44,639
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    198
    I don't want to get this excellent conversation too far off into the weeds, but after reading the brief synopsis in the opening post, I immediately thought about how I've been taught to handle individuals like Mr. Cebollas.

    We've already honed in on the most important element of how people like this fit into the flowchart from the perspective of LEOs and badge-less warriors. The following is a video created by and starring some folks I used to work with in the EMS system I got started in. It is a cursory but well-produced piece about how LE/and Fire/EMS can work together to handle people in a state of severe agitation or excited delirium. Note that this is produced by and directed at EMS providers as the primary audience.

    But when the blast of war blows in ours ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
    Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
    Then lend the eye a terrible aspect.

    Henry V



  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    1,592

    Default ONE FOR THE FLOWCHART - LE PERSPECTIVE

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Incidentally Papa, you do not seem the sort (to) focus on shuffleboard and day drinking once you are classified as Ronin. Should you be interested in teaching the Killing Within The Law material in your area of the nation once you are on your own, let me know.
    I strongly second this. All parties will benefit, but especially his XO, the resident team of canines, and the big black feline that runs the “ranch”.

    Well, probably not the cat, he don’t give any shits....
    Last edited by Ted Demosthenes; 08-03-2019 at 11:47 PM.
    Ted Demosthenes
    Suarez International Staff Instructor

    2019 Classes:

    CRG-3 Advanced Gunfighting, November 2-3 2019, Mapleton, OR

    From Murphy: "Incoming has the right-of-way" (so, GOTFX!!)


  4. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    3,106
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Demosthenes View Post
    I strongly second this. All parties will benefit, but especially his XO, the resident team of canines, and the big black feline that runs the “ranch”.

    Well, probably not the cat, he don’t give any shits....
    Alas, Ted, Joe left us for that big coyote hunt in the sky. See "Hounds of War" post #1192.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 2, 11. And a wakeup.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    UNited States
    Posts
    144
    Wondering if the courts are setting precedence with this ruling.

    Wonder what would happen if civilians followed the same actions as highly respected trained professional role models.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,426
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertGuy View Post
    Wonder what would happen if civilians followed the same actions as highly respected trained professional role models.
    Like everything else we talk about, the specifics matter. If he showed up in Granny's backyard and she killed him, one thing. If the MD treating him punched him in the throat, another. Since 99 44/100ths of the citizenry has no obligation to approach, detain, apprehend or treat this guy, I gotta wonder how you'd find yourself involved in the same actions as these cops. Can you set up the boxes on the chart for us?
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    UNited States
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    Since 99 44/100ths of the citizenry has no obligation to approach, detain, apprehend or treat this guy, I gotta wonder how you'd find yourself involved in the same actions as these cops. Can you set up the boxes on the chart for us?
    Is there a different flowchart for police?

    I think the box in the flowchart "Is Escape/De-scalation possible and moral" has the most question. You hear a lot about this in the media and bodycams.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,372
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertGuy View Post
    Is there a different flowchart for police?

    I think the box in the flowchart "Is Escape/De-scalation possible and moral" has the most question. You hear a lot about this in the media and bodycams.
    This actually gives more room to non-LOEs to operate in the grey, even in mandatory retreat states. LEOs have to deal with an ROE and levels of force, non-LEOs don't. If you can articulate that you couldn't escape or de-escalate safely, you don't have the obligation to do so. Additionally, if it would be morally abhorrent to escape rather than engage and can articulate it that way, there are no prosecutors in the country that will seek charges against you for saving lives, even in a mandatory retreat state.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  9. #39
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    44,639
    Mandatory Retreat - Be able to articulate credibly with big boy language that you tried but were not able to. Simple.

    Any state - Crazy guy being crazy not hurting me or anyone else that can't fight him off - no shits on my end, I go about my day.

    Any state that is free - Crazy guy being crazy and hurting others that cannot defend themselves...or trying to hurt me

    a). Empty handed attack (no weapons), gets a broken knee and maybe a jaw as well. Easy to articulate.
    b). Weapon attack of any sort...shot in the face

    Any state that is communist - unless its an active shooter event, or I am directly involved, I will tend to mind my own business unless it is so clear even a commie flower child with her pubic hair down to her ankles would have popped him.

    That is kinda it.

    LE can't go mind their own business if they are sent o a call to handle what may be a problem. There is a high art to kissing off a bullshit call without violating policies, but I suspect few know the inner workings of that alchemy these days.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    1,592
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Alas, Ted, Joe left us for that big coyote hunt in the sky. See "Hounds of War" post #1192.
    Sorry I missed that. Condolences to you both and the canines.

    Will keep an eye out for reincarnated Joe feline.

    Anyone got a line on an out of work large black feline, panther, or dyeable cougar, mountain lion??
    Ted Demosthenes
    Suarez International Staff Instructor

    2019 Classes:

    CRG-3 Advanced Gunfighting, November 2-3 2019, Mapleton, OR

    From Murphy: "Incoming has the right-of-way" (so, GOTFX!!)


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