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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,519
    Agreed and agreed.

    Pistols are much like cell phone cameras.

    You can easily buy a dedicated camera that is superior in every way to the tiny one on your phone, and if you're planning on taking photos that matter, that's what you're going to bring with you to a wedding, or the Grand Canyon, or that championship football game.

    But if you open the door to a back room in your local dive bar and you find Bigfoot, Elvis and Tupac having drinks, you're going to be taking that picture with your cell phone, because that's what you're going to have on you.
    Armed Puritan

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    4,214
    We have observed a push towards arming teachers as a response to active attacker events and I was asked my thoughts on this. I explained what I would set the training standard at AND the high likelihood of the teacher getting shot by responding LEO if they were still observably armed upon our arrival.

    This seemed to shock them so I further explained " We are pushing towards the attack and moving towards the sound of gunfire , I turn the corner and see someone shooting into a classroom, so I shoot him. You have hundreds of teachers and I dont know them all, so i didnt realize it was Mr. Smith from Calc2 shooting a badguy in the room at that time, stuff happens, it could also be that Mr. Smith finally cracked as well so him being a teacher is not an influencing factor". As long as you realize that this is a possible and in some cases likely outcome and you still get trained and want to do it, Im all for it.

    Any active attack event can be seen through this lense. Adding a long gun ONLY makes you more observable and deserving of attention in the threat matrix.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South-Central Idaho
    Posts
    3,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    In my opinion based on 15 years of LE work in a congested urban high activity area, based on twenty five years of training LE and private citizens in gunfighting, based on my in depth study of active shooter events, and based on my current assessment of the state of LE training and public perceptions, a man with a long gun that does not immediately appear to be a police officer is highly likely to be identified as a bad guy by both the immediate public and the police. The likelihood of being shot and killed at first sight by responding LE having been given your description is extremely likely.
    Not to mention all the CCW civilians (many of whom are complete bozos) who'd like to shoot a bad guy. I sometimes think I'd have better chances with the cops than with the armed civilians. Either way, I think walking around a shooting fest with a long gun is a good way to get dead from friendly fire.
    Wanna Learn about Medicinal Herbs & Edible Plants?
    HomeGrownHerbalist.net

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,756
    Quote Originally Posted by DogDoc View Post
    Not to mention all the CCW civilians (many of whom are complete bozos) who'd like to shoot a bad guy. I sometimes think I'd have better chances with the cops than with the armed civilians. Either way, I think walking around a shooting fest with a long gun is a good way to get dead from friendly fire.
    I have read that a typical burglar has greater fear of an armed homeowner than LEOs relative to being gunned down if the crook wants to surrender.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    1,015
    I don't want to seem like a post whore, but I appreciate
    this discussion. As a civilian, with no LE or military
    background, these are the discussions which drew me
    here & why I will continue to come back.

    So, again, I deeply appreciate what Gabe has created
    and what he & the others bring, and that I have a
    small place here.

    God Bless & God Speed.
    Last edited by Johnny C!; 07-24-2019 at 03:42 PM. Reason: grammer
    "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" Alan Temby
    "Give a man a mask and he will tell you the truth"- Oscar Wilde.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,196
    I can't repeat "what the books/texts say". I can only explain what I use and why.

    If I go out the door, even to get the mail or drag a garbage can to the curb, I've got a pistol.

    For away from my property it's a compact CZ. Caliber used to be dependent on whether I was by myself or if my wife was along. If she was along then I carried a pistol that used the same magazines/ammo as hers. That has changed now as she is carrying a small light 9MM that does not use CZ magazines.

    Around my property it is usually a full sized pistol. Winter time it's open carry and in warm weather it's concealed carry. One spare magazine on me at all times.

    I have 12 ga. shotguns with extended tubes loaded with 00 but I don't carry them anywhere, anytime. They sit in the corner, loaded. Not sure what I would use one for around my house/property.

    On a road trip I used to carry a .30 caliber rifle. I like the idea of not allowing someone to use a car for cover. But these days the road trip rifle is an AR15. Why to I take an AR15 on a road trip? One reason and one reason only. The very slim chance that some day I might be the only one around to help some LEO on the side of the road being shot at/shot up by people he's stopped for some reason or other.

    My PU is a std. cab. 4WD. No back seat. I will put an AR15 pistol behind the seat for road trips in that. Why? Because it fits and it works for many/most of the same things the carbine can do. I can't get a carbine behind the seat, but the pistol/magazines are a snug fit.

    I've got a couple pistol caliber "longer" guns. I take them to the range, they are fun, I don't carry them on road trips because they don't do anything better than the AR15 carbine or pistol.

    Long range rifles are something I don't have a use for around here. Flatland with lots of trees. Sounds fun to be able to hit a target at 600 yds. or more. No need for that when you can't see further than 200 yds. and the AR15's will shoot 3 or 4" groups (or less) at that distance and still do the job.

    I always carry a "butt load" of ammo for the AR15's. Twelve to thirteen loaded 30 round magazines. Six in a magazine pouch thing I can hang over my shoulder/around my neck that goes under one arm. The rest in the case the carbine is stored in.

    Same for the pistols on a road trip. Lots of ammo in magazines and more in boxes in the trunk. For short around town business I only carry a couple extra magazines in the car/truck.

    One of the things that dictates the calibers I take on road trips is ammo availability on the road. No calibers that might be hard to come by in case I needed to buy more ammo.

    I know this isn't a caliber conversation, just mentioning what/why that makes sense to me.

    The rule is - it's got to work for what I think I might need to do with it. That's what dictates what I carry/use. I'm here because sometimes there are ideas stated here that make me stop and think/consider something new (like that SIG556R and the RMR's for a couple of my CZs).

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,604
    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post
    This seemed to shock them so I further explained " We are pushing towards the attack and moving towards the sound of gunfire , I turn the corner and see someone shooting into a classroom, so I shoot him. Any active attack event can be seen through this lense. Adding a long gun ONLY makes you more observable and deserving of attention in the threat matrix.
    And something that seems to never be addressed elsewhere is that your tactics for dealing with the active shooter with those dynamics in mind. Your tactics and methods must take that into consideration. Off duty and UC LE have always kept these things in mind and how to comport themselves to avoid a blue-on-blue event. It is always a risk.

    The thing I have always kept in mind is an analogy of the Lord Of The Rings theme when Frodo puts on the ring, Sauron and his minions can see him. It is a similar thing. You are invisible until you bring out the pistol. Then you are a part of the game and not just a spectator. So bring it into action...kill what needs to be killed...and become invisible again...or at least less visible. In active shooter events there is no capture...no holding bad guys at gun point...none of that. It is locate, close, and eliminate...then holster or hold at close SUL.

    What you want the LE to see is either the man and not the gun, or failing to provide that image, a clean cut, fit man that may possibly be off duty LE handling his weapon like a professional. There is never a second chance to make a first impression, and you will be judged by what you are doing at the moment of first visual.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    192
    Nothing much to add here, except that I keep a Mossberg 590 in my car, under a blanket, solely as a proactive riot gun. Anything else, I would handle with my HK VP9, currently sitting at appendix with two 15-round mags back of the support side hip. The vast majority of what I would do involving a gun would involve that one, so that's where most of my training focuses.

    I'm also more and more hesitant to consider deploying my shotgun, unless I am confident that I will not be tagged immediately as the guy to get shot, if/when LEO would arrive at a situation. As has been repeated many a time, my pistol is much easier to manage, as far as perceptions go.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    east coast
    Posts
    271
    Most individuals here, own a pistol, shotgun, AR, scoped bolt action hunting rifle, or some variation thereof. Daily carry, for me, a G19RMR, plus a spare magazine; I reside in a typical urban city, and this will solve 95% of any untoward situations I would encounter, be it active shooter at place of employment, 'bad guy' in a restaurant, store, coffee shop, or just out walking about. I highly doubt I would need to engage a threat at any distance greater than 10-15 yards, perhaps 25yds at most, for which I practice at consistently. Will I have an AR or shottie when I'm out and about, not likely; but still enjoy having them and training with them, you know, in case of a zombie insurrection.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Detroit Suburbs
    Posts
    208
    The handgun is the ubiquitous weapon that is always on you... that can include a Glock PDW, The handgun is the vice grip, screwdriver, and 100mph tape of the defensive world. M1A noted always having a pistol... even to take out the garbage. I opened my garage door before getting in my car and, as Gomer would say, "surprise surprise Sarge!" My pistol was "magically" (training and muscle memory) in my hand when the unknown F150 driver sitting in my driveway would not obey my command to leave. Funny how those things work (He was in my neighbors driveways also I later found out).

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