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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Default LET'S SEE IF WE CAN DEFINE ROLES

    All weapons are specialized and have a purpose. Some have broad crossover capability, others do not. Since the last thread became so convoluted, perhaps it is time to define what things are for.

    Let's see if some of you can finish this -

    What is a handgun for and where does its niche exist?


    Same for a Submachinegun or PDW?


    Same for a CQB Rifle (M4, AK, etc...even AR Pistols)?


    Same for a Shotgun, Stakeout, et al?


    Same for a sniper rifle?


    Lets see what we learn. Begin
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,563
    Every weapon has its role, but that can also be driven by the role of the individual.

    I approach this from the standpoint of a civilian. It is not my job to go out of my way looking for trouble. My mission is to protect myself and my family/friends that are in my presence.

    However, I also believe that in 2019, as Gabe has written, every man is a counter terrorist. That means I am more than willing to address a terrorist event I happen to stumble upon.

    The handgun is my primary weapon. It is the weapon that has the broadest applicability; primarily because it is what I always HAVE. That can’t be said for any other weapon (possible exception is a knife). The handgun is equally an effective tool for reactive events as well as proactive events. It is like the seatbelt...you don’t plan on getting into a wreck, but you wear the belt anyway for those events you cannot foresee.

    Broadly speaking, all other weapons are proactive. You must have a special reason to carry them. Something that makes it worth while to go out of your way to carry them. Once they are in your hand, you may be faced with a reactive event, but you had a good reason to put them in your hands in the first place. Continuing the analogy of the seatbelt...every day driving, I just wear a belt because I don’t EXPECT problem. But if I am a race car driver, I am going to an event with a higher degree of danger. I’d drive a specialized car with a heavier duty belt and a helmet.

    Unless my role is something where I EXPECT a greater degree of danger in my day, I will not likely have any thing more than a pistol.

    There are certain events where you are in no immediate danger but the potential for danger is higher. Katrina, the Korean shopkeepers protecting their property during the LA riots, social uprising where potential danger is obvious and suddenly it’s not WEIRD to see people with rifles...that’s a different story. But it proves Gabe’s point that we had forewarnings and a degree of preparation.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Pistol Groundfighting, Kansas
    Pistol Groundfighting, Washington

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,167
    One thing I think is important to keep in mind when discussing roles is that we often can and should learn to stretch a weapon so we can use it in a role other than intended, though that doesn't mean we choose the weapon for something it's not suited to.

    We practice 100 yd pistol shots not because the pistol is a 100 yd weapon, but so that we know the limits of the platform.

    That being said:

    Mouse pistol: npe / backup gun

    Full-sized handgun: daily carry, reactive use

    Pdw: proactive use; indoors or <100 yds; home defense with mixed environment (family in home)

    Rifle: proactive; indoor / outdoor mixed environment; <400 yds. Close to general purpose. Less suitable indoors due to size and sound. Another category could be added here for rifles of sufficient caliber to stop cars, etc...

    Shotgun: proactive; <25 yds or indoor, especially low light; short events; uses include home defense use when in ambush, cqb, or possibly checkpoint duty when loaded with appropriate slugs and supported by others with different firearms.

    Stakeout: see above, but when portability is needed. Niche is car gun or for travel (a hotel gun as it were)

    Sniper / long distance rifle: proactive; shots > 400 yds

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    124
    Repeating what has been said but the hand gun will be with you. I've loaded up the Vertx Jason Born bag with a tiny Sig Copperhead and it's too heavy to carry all the time. It stays in the truck. I've tried to carry a rifle on the tractor when working the property and keep it with me but it ends up staying with the tractor as I work away from it or it gets left against a tree as I need both hands.

    I've pulled my truck rifle once. I came home to see an unknown truck on the property. I parked way back (300 yards). Got on the phone to make sure the wife was not home then called the sheriff. While I waited I had all the time in the world to pull out the Tavor from the toolbox and put it on the back seat with the bag unzipped. It was really more of a liability as I did not want to be a man with a rifle when the deputies arrived. Had I come home to an active situation with a home invasion in progress would I have taken the time to get the rifle? Hell no. It would have been the pistol. The unknown truck was a contractor hired by the power company to trim trees near power lines.

    I have issues with coyotes, dogs, cougars, and black bears. However, by the time I go get either a shotgun or rifle they've gone. None have ever attacked me but in the reactive moment I'd only have my handgun.

    In my safe I have a 12 gauge (Beretta 1301) with buckshot, Remington Police with slugs, a 300blk SBR suppressed, and a 9mm sub gun suppressed (CZ Scorpion). My fear is to be like Bruce Willis character in Pulp Fiction selecting weapons in the pawn store when faced with a home invasion. Looking forward to learning here how people use these weapons.
    Last edited by TwoBodyOneHead; 07-24-2019 at 02:50 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
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    4,265
    We have said it how many times?

    The pistol is a weapon of convenience, saving extreme cqb applications (very tight confines) it is NOT the best choice.......

    Save ONE over riding factor..... its the one most likely to be with you , as it IS much more convenient to carry and HAVE with you.

    This is what drives the rest as with ANY out of the ordinary situation, what do YOU have WITH YOU??

    I have access to some HSLD gear and weapon systems. Whats with me? Most of the time a pistol.

    PROactive I get a choice to make and get to chose the RIGHT weapon system to meet my perceived needs. Remember that the situation might not be what you thought it was.

    I need to be able to, run a ram, peel a door, to medical, eat, wipe my ass, carry a child, or drag my brother.

    Pistols fill this niche by the overriding capability of being convenient.

    Understanding this should cause us to maximize the capability of our pistol with reliability, sights, lights, ammo, etc. to fill as wide a role as possible. ALSO TO TRAIN WITH THAT SYSTEM !!

    I prefer a shotgun, SBR, etc to be able to thumb through my golf bag and select the right club, however most of the time the pistol is what is closest to hand when things go pearshaped.

    Next maximize your workspace.

    I can get my armor, SBR, etc, from the drivers seat (duty) while enroute to something so I still have options.

    Critical kit is duplicated, I have the IFAK on my vest, but also micro on my person.

    Choices made in layers, BECAUSE I made layers to choose from.

    For instance, the 870 is a great choice for many things and has literally saved my bacon real world on more than one occasion, so has my pistol, my rifle hasnt yet (We are talking about actually shooting, not a stand down cause the dude gave up), however it is closer and more available than my shotgun in the truck. Why? Why go to a system I havent utilized as closest after my pistol????

    Range. I might have to take the shot at 100 yards and wont know until arriving, so the expanded envelope best fits my rifle.

    Could I make the shot with the pistol? Probably, but its easier with the rifle.

    Would my 870 be better at 15 feet? YES, but the desire to maximize the envelope directs me to the rifle.

    I cant show up at the courthouse on an average day with my rifle (or shotgun) slung without causing comment from EVERYONE (like when we respond to duress alarms someone accidentally hit) and we do it when the perceived need is there, but no one bats an eye at the pistol day to day.

    The rifle is king for range

    The shotgun is king for close

    The pistol is king cause its with you when the other arent
    Last edited by coastalcop; 07-24-2019 at 05:12 AM.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,970
    One thing I think that should be analyzed for civilians is not only portability, but there is a limited degree of concealability for PDW and compact assault rifles for day time purposes. Such weapons can be partially concealed under a coat such that from a distance your silhouette is not high-lighted with an assault rifle. This is for emergency situations on your own property or nearby adjacent areas. I have only seen the need to do it once on the initial patrol of my property after a devastating hurricane. After such events dangerous animals from snakes to bears may be driven to highland and for daytime the I like the assault rifle. during the recovery phase once the roads are open such are still useful.
    The New SI shotgun such as the TAC-14 would also work well in such a mode. My MAK90 AK with stock folded is just a little over 2 ft long and even extended it is concealable under an open jacket from a distance and is good to 200 yards and I have a lot familiarity with it. The pistol ARs are even more excellent candidates for this role.
    right now I am working with the glock PDW and I have to see just how much better it is than the RMR pistol to justify it for any use.
    Last edited by barnetmill; 07-24-2019 at 06:26 AM.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    3,267
    Not sure I can do any better than the above, except--

    How many of us, right this moment, are actually wearing a fighting pistol?

    Or have immediate access to one?
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 0, 19. And a wakeup.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,167
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Not sure I can do any better than the above, except--

    How many of us, right this moment, are actually wearing a fighting pistol?

    Or have immediate access to one?
    Wearing RMR'd Glock 19 appendix right now.

    And I work from home so I could have just about anything I want. But I'm not going to tote around my AR in my house on the off chance that someone breaks in. My wife gets irritated as it is with my work stuff on our kitchen counter :)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    Just got up, sipping a nice Espresso. My Guttersnipe is right next to my cup.

    Gents...thanks for posting. Some guys got actually insulting in the PDW thread like their weapon choice was a religion I had called false. I think there is another facet here.

    What a uniformed LE can do is by virtue of his uniform. A uniformed Coastalcop or Papa walking away from his unit with a rifle is not a cause for alarm for most people. They look and the instant impression is "good guy going to kick bad guy ass". Now lets change that up and make the guy with the rifle...and in an event where shots have been fired...where the confusion of who is who is evident...where masses of people are running away...lets make that guy a slightly pudgy middle aged white guy, dressed in typical Saturday grungy...so in other words, "not a cop", and what will be the impression he presents to onlookers?

    Will they assume that the stock broker accountant is here to same them from the active shooter? Will they think, "Oh...the off duty patrol sergeant is here to save us"? Or will they instantly think of Paddock in Vegas and Mateen in Orlando? You might get lucky and be the Willeford in the story, but an outlier in a small town won't change reality.

    In my opinion based on 15 years of LE work in a congested urban high activity area, based on twenty five years of training LE and private citizens in gunfighting, based on my in depth study of active shooter events, and based on my current assessment of the state of LE training and public perceptions, a man with a long gun that does not immediately appear to be a police officer is highly likely to be identified as a bad guy by both the immediate public and the police. The likelihood of being shot and killed at first sight by responding LE having been given your description is extremely likely.

    The first thing that will be seen is the rifle and that is what will attract attention. Interesting to note that handguns, unless they are extremely large and garish will tend to not even be noticed.

    LE guys please comment.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    3,267
    Going 80's retro today--M9 AIWB with 2 20 rd spares. When I go out to work the dogs, it'll be a G20 and two spares.

    " ...a man with a long gun that does not immediately appear to be a police officer is highly likely to be identified as a bad guy by both the immediate public and the police. The likelihood of being shot and killed at first sight by responding LE having been given your description is extremely likely."


    Oh, heck yes. I live out in what used to be the country. I work there, too, after six or eight years in "a congested urban high activity area." You see some open carry of pistols here. What you don't see is open carry of long guns. No "Easy Rider Rifle Racks," rarely even the shotgun in the corner behind the kitchen door. Part of this is legislation, part of it is the risk of theft, but mostly it's the sheep moving out to where the wolves live.

    Deploy a long gun here, and you stick out like "a tarantula on a slice of angel food."* And if I'm responding to a school or workplace shooting, the ninja wannabe with the long gun gets my attention first, unless I've got a more immediate threat in my sights.


    *Raymond Chandler, "Farewell My Lovely"
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 0, 19. And a wakeup.

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