Aikido throw explained with Karate

[Brent Yamamoto]

Per another thread...

Wrist grabs are more common than people think. It’s useful to have some skills to deal with them.

Releasing yourself from a grab isn’t usually too difficult, unless of course the attacker is much bigger than you. This is why it’s especially important for women and kids to actually learn some of these things.

But out sometimes we don’t want the guy to let go...at least not until we are done with him. This is for one of those times.

My dojo partner Randy demonstrates the Aikido throw, and I show how it’s also just like Karate. People familiar with Karate stuff will probably appreciate it more but hopefully there’s something for everyone.

[barnetmill]

My limited knowledge of the subject is that what is done in Aikido is much more effective that what is taught in judo relative to grabs. Judo was very sanitized relative to joint torsion and twisting moves. Judo using what is is designed not to injure so much and not to be so painful to practice. This was all in keeping to the sporting intention of judo, but of course just like in college wresting one can fight using judo techniques and Aikido and Karate go together a lot better and that really starts to lead one to what jujitsu was at one time.
I am most interested in how to break a grab. Some of the pain causing techniques seem to not always be as effective in causing pain in some people versus others. I am not sure why. A major value in learning such things is knowing how to defend against them.

[Brent Yamamoto]

Big generalizations to follow...

Judo uses a lot of what I call “core throws”. By this I mean the throw is executed by manipulating the opponent’s center, stealing their balance and often times physically picking them up before dumping them. I think of these mostly as variations on a hip throw.

Judo also has a lot of tripping and sweeping techniques. For the comparison to Aikido you can think of this as an extremity attack; it’s aimed at the lower body, somewhere in the legs.

Aikido also has a lot of core throws, but rather than physically picking up the body, they involve manipulating the other guy’s spine and timing. Much less muscle is required, but the techniques are also somewhat less forgiving (i.e. you better not fuck it up).

Aikido also performs a lot of extremity throws, but these are with the upper body. Manipulation of spine and stealing balance is effected through the connection through the arms. These are often the things you see done in response to a wrist grab (though they can certainly be applied from other attacks as well).


The common root of both Aikido and Judo is Jujutsu. But they evolved differently for different contexts and needs.


Aikido (and it’s close antecedent Aikijutsu) makes a lot more sense when you realize it was designed for people who were armed. The reason Aikido is “soft” is because you’re not cutting the other guy in half. It is also designed to get your hands free ASAP while at the same time tossing the other guy away from you and into his friends. The idea is someone has grabbed your wrists/arm/shoulder with the intent of stopping you from drawing your weapon.

This is is different from just releasing your grip to either escape or to hit the other guy. It’s a release that damages not only the initial attacker but also his buddies.


I am not a fan of pain compliance stuff...yeah it’s good to know but it’s too dicey to count on. MECHANICAL compliance is better. But taking away the other guy’s balance and eliminating his ability to do damage to you is what’s best, IMO.

[PRC 74]

Great explanation in Karate terms Brent. Thanks

[diving dave]

Good video. I've never been a huge martial arts guy, few years of Shotokan. But when I was working as a LEO, most of our arrest and control was based on Akidio. The Koga method. Pretty good stuff.

[wheel]

Brent can you please describe the Arm-Lock at the end of the technique, applied after the attacker has being taken to the ground. In the thread Christians are Weird.

The hand not holding the attacker`s wrist sort of circles behind the Outside of the attackers elbow and then locks the arm out.

The way I apply an Arm-Lock is to twist the Wrist, Hyper-extending the arm while pressing down on the first two knuckles of the hand and then lifting the attackers wrist up-The fingers of the attackers hand pointing upwards. This locks his wrist and arm in place.

You can then strengthen the technique by pressing down on the outside of the elbow, by letting go with one hand and using the Forearm of that hand. Assisting you in getting the attacker to the ground. Then adding a knee to pin the arm to the ground once the attacker is prone.

It seems adding the Arm Circle thing strengthens the Lock. Providing an extra layer of security, by keeping the arm in place, preventing the attacker from pulling it free.

OSSU!
Elfie

[Brent Yamamoto]

Hard to explain. I will see if we can do some video tonight.

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These pics show using two hands but the technique can be done with either hand by itself. Two is of course more secure. This isn’t a difficult hold and it is a strong mechanical compliance technique that also happens to be very painful. It does take some skill to keep the guy from throwing a spinning elbow back at you.

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This is the formal version of the pin. Most circumstances I imagine, I wouldn’t bother pinning someone, I’d prefer to snap the limb and walk away. But if I DID want to pin, I wouldn’t do it this way. There are standing versions of the pin, which only requires one hand. The formal version does teach you things about pinning though so it has value. One hand holds the guy’s hand, controlling and imparting pain to the wrist as necessary. The other hand pins his elbow to your body, controlling not only his elbow but also the shoulder and spine, if done correctly. You can add lots of love with one of your knees if you like, such as placing it on his neck. This is the nice version.
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[wheel]

Hi Brent, Thanks for the reply.

What I was curious about is the end position of the technique-Figure 8.

If I interpret the technique correctly after you Lock the Wrist Out you continue to twist his hand, turning the Palm of his Hand towards your chest.

I was taught that you Twist the Wrist Out and then Press Forward and In towards the Attacker`s Arm-In other words stopping the Twist halfway, Locking the Arm Out-The Palm of the Attacker`s Hand ending up Facing away from you.

Whereas with this Lock you continue to Twist the Attacker`s Hand, the Palm of the Attacker`s Hand ending up facing towards you when the Lock is completed.

In Figure 8 the Other Arm continues to apply pressure/pain to the Attacker`s Arm by circling behind the elbow, while controlling the arm at the same time.

Whereas with the "Karate Lock" it is used more to Control the Arm-Figure 6 Pressing Down, higher up on the arm,more towards the shoulder. And then once the Attacker is prone the Other Hand is still only used to keep the arm pinned to the ground, while still only applying pain/pressure to the Wrist.

What intrigues me about this Aikido-Lock is that although you are controlling the Attacker`s Arm you continue to apply pressure/pain at the same time and at two points of contact and not just at the end of the arm at the Wrist only.

OSSU!
Elfie

[Brent Yamamoto]

Mine

Hi Brent, Thanks for the reply.
You're welcome

What I was curious about is the end position of the technique-Figure 8.

If I interpret the technique correctly after you Lock the Wrist Out you continue to twist his hand, turning the Palm of his Hand towards your chest. - Yes.

I was taught that you Twist the Wrist Out and then Press Forward and In towards the Attacker`s Arm-In other words stopping the Twist halfway, Locking the Arm Out-The Palm of the Attacker`s Hand ending up Facing away from you.

Whereas with this Lock you continue to Twist the Attacker`s Hand, the Palm of the Attacker`s Hand ending up facing towards you when the Lock is completed.

In Figure 8 the Other Arm continues to apply pressure/pain to the Attacker`s Arm by circling behind the elbow, while controlling the arm at the same time.

Whereas with the "Karate Lock" it is used more to Control the Arm-Figure 6 Pressing Down, higher up on the arm,more towards the shoulder. I find that pressing closer to the shoulder doesn't work nearly as well. The shoulder doesn't give as much leverage, and it's an incredibly strong area to fight against. Attacking the elbow provides much greater leverage and is harder to resist. What I see usually is people trying to control the shoulder by pressing midway up the tricep. That can work against people that don't know how to stop it, but it's relatively easy to resist.

And then once the Attacker is prone the Other Hand is still only used to keep the arm pinned to the ground, while still only applying pain/pressure to the Wrist.

What intrigues me about this Aikido-Lock is that although you are controlling the Attacker`s Arm you continue to apply pressure/pain at the same time and at two points of contact and not just at the end of the arm at the Wrist only.
This one is really multiple points of contact. The pictures emphasize what your hands/arms do. What is not communicated is that your whole body is involved in the lock. Your knees pin his shoulder, holding it in place. Your body is in contact with his whole arm, providing additional friction. Your lower arm doesn't press INTO or AGAINST his elbow, it's more like it's slicing forward. You aren't so much grasping his arm as it is that you're hugging yourself...his arm just happens to be in the way. The upper hand grasps his hand (not his wrist), and gently twists. Your arm action takes all the slack out of his arm...not so much causing pain as it simply leaves the other guy no where to go. What is not described in the pictures is that once slack is taken out of the arm, there's a gentle rotation of your torso towards his head, then there is a small bow, also towards his head. That will initiate him tapping...or it will rip his shoulder out.

Again, I don't consider this a fighting technique. But it's a good developmental technique because it's teaching you principles of control, taking up slack, using your whole body rather than just your hands and muscle strength. This pin can absolutely work but I'd not do it against an active resistor (someone who not only wants to be free but wants to kill you). It would be useful for someone you could kill but are choosing to be merciful.

This also shows why describing techniques with words is impossible. Even video won't really show you what's going on, this is something that needs to be felt.

OSSU!
Elfie

[wheel]

Morning Brent

Thanks once again.

You did a good job explaining the technique using words, I have a clear mental picture of the technique now.

I am going to file it away to share/demonstrate in the future when I get an opportunity to do so.

OSSU!
Elfie