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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,905

    Default THE PROBLEM WITH PASS-FAIL SHOOTING TESTS

    Suarez-Gabe-Class_8.jpg



    The problem with Passing/Failing is that if your standards are so high that only a couple passed after the training, then either you suck hairy balls as a trainer, you are purposely going out of your way to fail people, or those standards are not realistic for the level of the class.


    In every case, you end up with the majority of students leaving thinking they suck. People that suck get discouraged and find something else to do, or simply accept that they suck and move on.


    The goal of training should be, and is with us, to make the student better by the end of class. And we do that with just about everyone from teenagers to handicapped veterans. To set an arbitrary "you must pass this or you fail" is a foolish thing to do in many ways, and I don't care who you are or where you have been.


    We do not do this and have never done this...and yet, our students show remarkable progress in every class. Standards are a carry-over from sport-centric worlds, or institutional "check off the qualification box" needs. Both which have nothing to do with making better and more accurate killers.

    Instead on being fixated on scores and points, skilled teachers should focus on making their students better without punishing them for being imperfect.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,436
    I'm actually a little flabbergasted that this needs to be said.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,905
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    I'm actually a little flabbergasted that this needs to be said.
    Yeah...flabbergastery (the state of being flabbergasted) is a common thing for me these days. BTW, sent a reply to your email.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,579
    There are many other factors that lead to this kind of thinking (pass/fail stuff), but one that always stands out to me is the need for validation. Validation of their skills, validation of their choices, validation of their lives.

    I think instructors that include these kinds of tests in their classes are looking for their own validation.

    I think also there's an indoctrination from the education system...obsessions with degrees and passing tests. Unless you've passed the test, your skill and knowledge isn't real. I think it's an odd (not to mention expensive) form of permission seeking.

    Testing ones SELF - setting a goal/challenge and accomplishing it - this is almost always a good thing. But that is personal and not something that needs to go on your resume. But that's a very different thing than seeking the validation of others.

    I make students work hard because I'm trying to help build them up. I have little interest in making them jump through validation hoops, let alone building a class format that instills a sense of failure. Or a sense of false confidence.

    I hope that students in my classes always feel that they are more capable and more dangerous by the time we are done. I hope that I've boosted skill and confidence they can feel good about. But I also try to instill the idea that the road isn't done...there is more to learn, more to train, more to overcome. And I hope I help inspire them to keep moving up that road.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Pistol Groundfighting, Kansas
    Pistol Groundfighting, Washington

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,313
    If SI did the pass/fail thing I would have stopped after my first class. I was terrible. It was also totally new to me back then so its not surprising I was terrible. Lol. I have since gone on to be less terrible. I still do the 5 shot drill Hasher taught me so long ago. Put a round in a target for an aiming point and then shoot the smallest
    4 shot group you can. When they are all on top of each other over time take a few steps back and do it again.
    Geek Warlord
    Dungeons & Dragons & Deadlifts

    Muscle Wizard Casts: Fist


    CRG-1 DPS
    CRG-2 CRG x 2
    SGF-1 Shotgun Gunfighting
    Trauma care under fire
    Spetsnaz Sniper
    HRO-5 Terrorist & Active Shooter Interdiction
    HRO-6 CQB: Fighting in Structures
    CRG-4 Force on Force
    HRO-5 Terrorist & Active Shooter Interdiction - 3 day
    TWOTU edition
    Trauma Medicine for the CCW Operator
    Pistol Ground Fighting (Taint Shooting Progressions)

    TWOTU since May 2015

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    2,420
    I've taken a few SI classes and observed the one in which I enrolled my wife, and I've been fortunate to have been taught by four different SI instructors. In all of those classes, the students were not of equal skill when they started, nor where they of equal skill when they finished. But ALL of them improved as a result of the SI approach.

    Of course, some of them are still mentally scarred by some of what came out of Nichols' mouth, but I digress...
    Waitin' for a squeeze...

    TWOTU Since March 2012

    DPS
    CRG
    AR15/M4 RGF
    HRO-6 CQB
    HRO-7 Team Tactics
    HITS-8 Knife


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    577
    Gabe and Brent, From a student's perspective what I see from your posts is that you care if your students learn. That passion and desire from the teachers isn't something that all "firearms instructors" have. A lot of places I've been gives off the vibe of paying for supervised range time, not instruction.
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    “Adversity introduces a man to himself.”

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,498
    people are like produce, if they're not growing, they're dying. In every class I attempt to get everyone to grow in their skill set and mentality, as well as give them the tools needed to go home and grow more on their own if they choose to.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,209
    I used to instruct with/for a group that would have everyone shoot a multiple target target (different sized targets on a single piece of paper simulating increasing ranges). Then we'd go over the targets and tell the students to keep the target so they could compare it to what they shot the next day. It's always nice to see the results of the training/practice when your groups not only get smaller, but begin hitting where you want them to hit on the target/paper.

    The only competition is with yourself, we'd tell them.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    earth, temporarily.
    Posts
    2,470
    Try to catch the student doing something right.
    DPS
    PSP
    CRG
    KRG
    0-5
    TASI
    APSP

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