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  1. #11
    I like tests with a score but I decide where I want to be. I shoot Defoor's a lot. Rifle 100 yards and 10 rounds in 10 seconds dropping from standing to prone in the head. Pistol 25 yards and 10 rounds in the head.

    I can tell you the difference between a G48/G19/FN with RMR. I can tell you when my skill is dropping or rising. I decide where the pass is for me with each system and push myself.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    What is coming in police qualifications is pass/fail shoot a 210 or a 300 and you passed. We can't have affirmative action making some "more equal than others"

    I became a cop in 1976. Hell back in the 80s females were few, but there were many black men recruited and they eliminated the 50 yard line for reasons of it being discriminatory. I have never figured that out.

    I will believe in affirmative action when 75% of the NBA is white.

    I am a sick old man whose police experience was "Mayberry" I had my 7th heart surgery in May. I have been fighting Cancer for 15 years. My health takes me to urban areas. Sometimes with a crutch sometimes with a walker and for a while in a wheelchair. I have more than once looked at a cop and said I could take him. What if there is a dirtbag who wants to try and I am unarmed because of the medical procedures that I will be doing.

    Thoughts at large.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by choirboy View Post
    and they eliminated the 50 yard line for reasons of it being discriminatory. I have never figured that out. discriminates bad shots, but isn't that what you want it to do?

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Another factor leading to the elimination of the 50 yard qual was "firepower." There were no Glocks, Beretta 92s or Sig 226s available in the day--as a practical matter your choice was the Browning High Power or Smith 59, or the 1911 or Smith 39 if you settled for less rounds. The Browning was always too expensive, and except for some 39s and the Colt Gold Cup, none of the others would shoot as well in terms of practical or mechanical accuracy as an out of the box skinny barrel Smith Model 10. The 59 was especially egregious.
    The JSSAP trials were a blessing to all serious pistoleros, requiring hand-held accuracy as well as reliability. But those of us who were around in the Dark Ages can't help but think of a good revolver when we hear the word "accuracy."

    When I was on SWAT (cue the violins) the qual was modified by including a 35 yard stage, I suspect in hopes we'd eventually bring it back to 50. But for rack grade Smiths and Glocks in the hands of rifle-dependent cops, this was too challenging.
    Last edited by Papa; 07-13-2019 at 05:29 AM.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I rode the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer (as modified)

    "What cannot be remedied must be endured."

    Vale et omnia quae.


  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    The New World
    I like Paul Howes Standards. I don't look at them as a minimum or something to train to and stop. I shoot them to evaluate where I'm at and what/where I need to work on. That being said even if I meet them all I'm always working to improve no matter what.

    Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Beyond The Wall
    Papa...what you say about the capabilities of those older pistols...and ammo is true. I recall when I did the Gunsite thing...their advanced level class, you went prone for shots at 50 and 100 yards...and not everyone made them...even with custom 1911s. Contrast that with today...with a properly trained shooter, a RMR Glock and good ammo. In my class, guys hit 100 usually 4 to 5 seconds (informal count by me). Impossible in 1990, but common today due to technology.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    I don`t have any experience attending Firearm Training Courses but have a few thoughts, having trained in a Dojo regularly and having attended my shair of Casuku`s.

    If you teach people by turning everything into some type of competition people will start comparing themselves to the person on their left and right. And from that point forward the training will turn into a race/trying to beat the other person score. The person`s only focus being trying to to better than the person on either side of them.

    People then develop "competition dna" believing that the only time they are adding to their skill level and improving is when they are beating everybody else.

    It is virtually impossible to teach these people because they cannot bring themselves to walk before they can run. They don`t enjoy learning a new technique/using a new drill, not wanting to struggle "lose" when training to use the technique/drill. Wanting to be able to excel right away-Wanting to "win"

    This also makes them terrible Training Partners because they will "cheat to win." Not cooperating with you doing the drill, not wanting you to pull of the technique-To win. Even when they get to apply the technique themselves they will look for shortcuts/better ways to to the technique. Again wanting to win and not interested in the benefits of learning and using the drill.

    Brent what are your thoughts on validation when a person is new to training/an experienced person training in a new training environment? For example going from Traditional Dojo Training to Pistol Ground Fighting. I don`t mean babysitting them throughout the day but pointing out to them if they did well with a particular drill/technique. Or how their performance has improved later in the day during a break versus from when they started earlier in the day.

    The reason I ask this is because I found with myself that it is easy to develop tunnel vision only focusing on what you are doing wrong and what you still need to work on that you forget to celebrate the small victories and I move into a negative mindset. Having someone outside your bubble pointing out to you that you actually don`t completely suck and have in fact made some progress will re-energize your training and help you to push through the suck.

    This brings me to my next point. The instructor must be able to draw you a clear mental picture of what you will be able to to, once you have learned the techniques and have put in the work to make the material your own. And you must be able to make the techniques work when you get your hands on the attacker/you are in range-Understanding the technique clearly. Your challenges in making the techniques work should not be in applying the technique once you are in range but because you did not apply the technique correctly.

    Combining the clear picture of how the technique should look perfectly pulled of with how it feels when it works against a Resisting Attacker. You will then be able to go home and work on what you learned, the material making sens.

    After watching the clip discussing warrior ethos the desire to be better, to improve coming from within makes sense-Competing against yourself. This I got from Cabe and the tribe here. Where the goal is to set the bar as high as possible for yourself no matter what your Training Challenges are.

    Leaving a course you should feel the same way, that you have taken a giant step forward in knowledge, the bar having being set higher. And you should be eager to return home and work the material solo, to reach to bar and then surpass it.


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