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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    44,518

    Default TACTICS DEBRIEF - #1

    There are those who get upset when we do this. "You weren't there", is the oft heard whine. Well...we may not have been there specifically, but we have been in plenty of places, and many here - even if their lives have been more sedate - are intelligent and trained human beings who can discern danger cues and devise sound tactics. As well as critique them. I did that with myself after every single contact and have a stack of notebooks with notes on those events.

    So...in the spirit of "let's all learn", have a look at this video and lets discuss tactics.

    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    currently Germany
    Posts
    775
    Never been an LEO but initial thoughts;

    I thought the first officer was taking a long time to do anything till I realised he was waiting for backup, his demeanour was relaxed and non-threatening till the second officer arrived when he drew his weapon.
    Second officer clearly identified the back seat passenger was non compliant and had his weapon pointed in quickly, then moved tactically towards the front of the vehicle to avoid a cross fire with officer one all the time communicating for further back-up, as soon as BG exited vehicle with weapon he fired while moving putting the engine block between him and bg.
    First officer moved around rear of vehicle to get a clear shot if required.
    From my point of view, good tactics, good shoot. LEOs 1 bgs 0.
    ...If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"...
    If - Rudyard Kipling

    ECRG, June 2006
    Warrior Skills Camp, July 2009

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    5,416
    Common cop problem of wanting to transmit too early. "Shots fired" and "Start meds" kind of stuff come after you've solved the problem.

    Good job on field diplomacy. Good job on getting guns out early. Would have preferred more angular movement than straight back into the open street, but meh. Solid work, with improvements just on the margins. Far better at controlling things and maintaining the initiative than the recent knife video.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    SE New Mexico
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    1,177
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    Common cop problem of wanting to transmit too early. "Shots fired" and "Start meds" kind of stuff come after you've solved the problem.

    Good job on field diplomacy. Good job on getting guns out early. Would have preferred more angular movement than straight back into the open street, but meh. Solid work, with improvements just on the margins. Far better at controlling things and maintaining the initiative than the recent knife video.
    I was about to post about this re Cop #2. I find the instinct to back straight away from the threat hard to break in our FOF classes. It takes constant practice
    “Every day the same thing...variety”

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Made it to Free America
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    Id like to know the reason for the stop. If it was simple traffic and escalated to other things, then the primary officer did a good job of BS-ing the driver and passengers until back up arrived BUT if it was something more that traffic from the start; Im thinking the stop should have waited until back up was on the scene to make the stop.

    Im not sure why the back up officer put himself in a crossfire position. I get that he could see the rear passenger better; but moving forward to clear the crossfire also means he lost the sight advantage. Had he positioned him self on the drivers side, he would have been beside/behind the passenger, which seems like an advantage for both officers

    Additionally when the driver bailed out, he was left unguarded when the primary officer went to check on the suspect the second officer shot. Had he been a threat he could have acted without anyone to stop him.

    Im not sure why advising shots fired and send medic early is an issue. It lets everyone know the shite hit the fan. Is that ever a bad thing?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    5,416
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Im not sure why advising shots fired and send medic early is an issue. It lets everyone know the shite hit the fan. Is that ever a bad thing?
    Yes. It distracts you from solving the tactical problem, makes you think about talking instead of using what's left of your brain to deal with issues like proactive reloads and securing hostiles, and takes a hand off your gun when you still aren't sure if the fight's over. In this scenario, it isn't going to do a thing to get you additional help in time to matter. So solve the problem in front of you: finish the gunfight and then light the Bat Signal. Sure if you're pinned down and taking incoming, broadcast earlier.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    Yes. It distracts you from solving the tactical problem, makes you think about talking instead of using what's left of your brain to deal with issues like proactive reloads and securing hostiles, and takes a hand off your gun when you still aren't sure if the fight's over. In this scenario, it isn't going to do a thing to get you additional help in time to matter. So solve the problem in front of you: finish the gunfight and then light the Bat Signal. Sure if you're pinned down and taking incoming, broadcast earlier.
    Not sure I agree. Prior to the officers advising "shots fired"; no one had called a "signal 13". At best the primary officer had requested a supervisor respond (and he was in no particular hurry--typical of too many bosses). Nobody knew they were in trouble, just an officer requesting a second officer, a good dispatcher might have been on alert; but nothing to push the "Oh shit" button. The other guys on the shift might have heard something in the first officer's voice; but he sounded calm, or at least clam enough.

    Calling "shots fired" and "send medics" also said without actually saying that the officers were "OK", otherwise he would have said "officer down". More importantly, it allows a mental "reset", not a pause just a reset. It doesn't stop reloads, in fact it might speed them up because its a step toward normalcy in a Fd up moment. It might break the tunnel vision and Id suggest it will get help coming faster. Yes its a call for help; but so what, its also a call to say "some MFer just attacked and now he needs a medic-F him" AND it looks good/sounds good on the bodycam when this comes up at the review and civil trial (think back to the Hollywood shootout where the officers were criticized for not getting aid to the bad guy)…..AND its the first proof you tapped a badguy

    Just another school of thought

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    790
    After backup was on scene, from my perspective the detention involved a heavy amount of repetitive "ask" & too much repetitive "tell"...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
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    2,190
    They took a bad guy off the street, maybe permanently.
    They didn't hit each other or anyone else.
    They didn't sustain any injuries to themselves.
    They didn't have to do a high speed chase through traffic/city/town to get the guys off the road.

    Pluses, in my mind.

    Could they have done some things better? Can't most everyone improve and do things better? It's training, practicing, talking about it afterwards (purpose of this thread) and learning from it that makes these things smoother/safer for the officers (and the public).

    Would I be wrong to say that "thinking" about making radio calls and replacing partially empty magazines is something that happens due to not training as much as needed?

    In my mind, the things in the above statement are similar to pulling the pistol from the holster to use it, flipping the safety to the FIRE position (if it has a safety), hitting the magazine release button to drop a magazine, moving off the "X", etc., etc., etc. You don't have time, sometimes, to think about it, so you train/practice till you do it without having to take the time/attention from the situation to get it done.

    Maybe I'm wrong.

    Putting it in non gun, non shooting terms/examples. I never have to "think" about setting a hook when a bass sucks up a worm/grub. I never have to "think" about putting my thumb on the spool of the bait caster to keep from getting a backlash. I never have to "think" about which way/side of the kayak to paddle on to go the direction I want to go. I never had to "think" about moving the safety on my Ithaca M37 to the FIRE position in those fractions of seconds I had between the ruffed grouse busting out of the brush and disappearing behind some more brush. I don't have to "think" about hitting the brakes or hitting the gas in the car. I don't have to "think" about which way to hit the turn signal lever when I signal for a turn. Do it enough that you do the right thing at the right time. Your mind is an amazing thing and it's amazing what you can do with it when you train yourself to use it.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    215
    It appeared the officer was looking for that vehicle as he was parked slightly back from the stop sign and there was no obvious traffic violation. He moved out as soon as he saw the white SUV. That and the repeated radio traffic on backup location tells me this was no ordinary traffic stop. As soon as backup arrives he drew his weapon. As the back seat guy reaches, the backup moved forward so that the officers were in an "L" shaped shooting formation. As for getting off the X, if backup breaks left he runs into the house pretty quickly. Backseat perp never really had a chance.

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