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  1. #41
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    Nov 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by John W in SC View Post
    One big difference is that we can carry handguns ready to use in a device (a holster) that protects the trigger from inadvertent contact. Slung long guns have no such trigger protection.
    I get that and I agree - the holster does for the handgun what the safety does for the long gun in contexts where we only carry it from A to B in the holster or on the sling.


    But I question the assumption of trained shooters being in real danger of forgetting to take the safety off with their handgun when they do it very reliably with the long gun. Because they train for it.


    And look at safety use with long guns: Most organizations teach to put the safety on when the rifle leaves the shoulder. But we don't see a similar need for the pistol - why is that? Either we are using the safety too much on our long guns or too little on our handguns.

    Wouldn't it be consistent to only put the long gun on safe in a situation where we would holster the pistol? Or have a safety on the pistol we use in all the same circumstances as we use it on the long gun, i.e. gun still in hand, but not in immediate shooting use?

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    232
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    1). I am not asking anyone to "do as I do". Simply saying what I found that is interesting and what you thought. It seems we have difficulty doing the latter without the former.

    2). Striker fired pistols are extremely easy to use. That is their advantage as well as disadvantage. I have always had that concern - but there was no good way to alter that other than to simply keep it holstered all the time. And I know that I am not alone in that as I have had discussions about that with many of the incredulous posters here.

    3). I have never been a 1911 guy. I owned one 1911 as a toy basically because I didn't carry it in CA pre-LE. I sold it to finance my first SIG P-226 back in 1987. If the reader is the sort whose manual dexterity disallows a safety mechanism (because they will miss it when they try to use it under duress) then this is not for them. But I submit that a hand that will miss a safety due to a lack of dexterity may be a hand that also fails to operate a short 3 pound trigger safely. As Papa noted...this is not a 1911 v Glock discussion.

    If a safety can be added that provides the benefits listed in Post #1, and does not detract the user from deploying the weapon quickly in realistic events, the safety if designed to be easy to access and disengage, and that user has the focus and intent to integrate its use into regular operation, I see no disadvantage to the addition.

    No reader need follow, but that is where I seem to be going with this.
    All quite reasonable explanations that make sense. Thanks.

    I kicked manual safeties when I traded a (cheap) 1911 I used to carry for my car shotgun, due in part to the concern that I would miss the safety on a draw. Prior to that, my--extremely foolish--solution was to carry it without the safety on; I decided that was a dumb idea and quit carrying the pistol altogether, due to my thought that no matter how hard I trained with it, I had the increased risk of the gun not going bang in a confrontation because I had missed the safety. I no longer hold that view, as I recognize the simple need to train myself to disengage the safety on the presentation.

    Following the usual thrust of the other posters who decry a safety on a striker-fired pistol, I have always considered the internal safeties of the popular striker guns, combined with drawing finger off trigger as default, and using a decent holster as sufficient safety mechanisms to eliminate the need for a thumb-actuated/manual safety. But, this discussion gives me a few reasons otherwise to consider. I'm not convinced yet, but we'll see.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    232
    Quote Originally Posted by Bold View Post
    And look at safety use with long guns: Most organizations teach to put the safety on when the rifle leaves the shoulder. But we don't see a similar need for the pistol - why is that? Either we are using the safety too much on our long guns or too little on our handguns.

    Wouldn't it be consistent to only put the long gun on safe in a situation where we would holster the pistol? Or have a safety on the pistol we use in all the same circumstances as we use it on the long gun, i.e. gun still in hand, but not in immediate shooting use?
    I think there is a real difference to be noted with regard to (most) striker-fired handguns: The trigger safety lever and internal disconnectors at least minimize the risk of ND, even if the trigger is brushed by something, whereas on all long guns of which I am aware, those features are absent. This makes the 1911 or other firearms with a single action trigger much closer analogues to the rifle in the sorts of situations you reference, while the shooter can mitigate much of that risk simply by taking his finger off the trigger, due to the additional features of most striker pistols,

    There is something to be said for putting the safety on intentionally, but since a handgun is, with very rare exception, either in one's hand or a holster, the additional potential circumstances of ND that safeties on PDWs and rifles (not being carried in holsters) are there to vitiate, it seems to me the situation with a true handgun, if you will, is different enough to put the need of a manual safety on a striker pistol in a gray area.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricco View Post
    ......unless that has changed too

    I dunno, I'm very confused by all this

    It doesn't matter much though, I will continue to do what I have learned via FOF, others can follow the new paradigm
    Good for you. Thanks for the contribution. Now that out of the way...we will continue the discussion.

    A thought..."Emotional attachments are not conducive to open minds, or improved development". Bruce Lee I think...
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faramir2 View Post
    ......put the need of a manual safety on a striker pistol in a gray area.
    Good point.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
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    9,418
    Quote Originally Posted by Bold View Post
    But I question the assumption of trained shooters being in real danger of forgetting to take the safety off with their handgun when they do it very reliably with the long gun. Because they train for it.


    And look at safety use with long guns: Most organizations teach to put the safety on when the rifle leaves the shoulder. But we don't see a similar need for the pistol - why is that? Either we are using the safety too much on our long guns or too little on our handguns.

    Wouldn't it be consistent to only put the long gun on safe in a situation where we would holster the pistol? Or have a safety on the pistol we use in all the same circumstances as we use it on the long gun, i.e. gun still in hand, but not in immediate shooting use?
    Personally for me it depends on circumstances. With an AR and 1911, I safe when I'm moving, off safe when presenting/mounted (weather moving or not). With a 92F I'm off safe as long as it's out of the holster (because DS/SA advantage and the European safety. But you've hit on the head the real issue which I highlighted in bold.

    ETA: I couldn't tell you how green I was the last time I mounted an M4 and forgot the safety, or the last time I drew a pistol with a manual safety (even under real stress) and missed/forgot the safety.
    Last edited by Greg Nichols; 07-01-2019 at 10:44 AM.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Phoenix, Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricco View Post
    Apparently "opinions" weren't really wanted, it's okay I've been here most everyday for over a decade so I get it

    I will bow out of this conversation here and wait for whatever change comes next, should be interesting
    See more emotional reaction. Opinions are fine, asking questions and commentary is fine. This is how the discussion gets furthered. You brought up an item (people missing the safety in FOF) and it was answered. If that's all you have, cool, if you have something more to express do it. Restating the same item and stating you'll stick with the way you've been doing it doesn't further the conversation. I'd direct you to Faramir2's contributions, they are well thought out and articulate comments and questions without having a preconceived answer he's trying to validate. That's a discussion.
    Last edited by Greg Nichols; 07-01-2019 at 11:24 AM.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricco View Post
    Apparently "opinions" weren't really wanted, it's okay I've been here most everyday for over a decade so I get it

    I will bow out of this conversation here and wait for whatever change comes next, should be interesting
    So why the emotion?

    Everything you have posted is as if I had just announced I am gay or something. Read your posts again and tell me that is not the case.


    Your posts -

    Suggesting I am somehow disingenous about this entire thing - "We can't compare rifles or shotguns to pistols, one is reactive and the other is proactive, unless that has changed too"

    More of the same - "If FOF is what it is presented to be, the closest thing we can get to a gunfight without actually dying then what we saw way back when was people missing safeties under stress. Maybe FOF isn't what what it is presented to be or maybe people have been using air soft or whatever sans safeties for so long the lessons we learned have been forgotten."

    You have been here for ten years soaking up all the free information. Got it...that is what we do. But now you seem upset that the free information you got this morning was not in accordance with your opinion, or what you were expecting and want to argue why you are right and I am wrong - or worse - being dishonest somehow - for suggesting otherwise.

    You think safeties are stupid, fine. We get it. I disagree.

    Thank you for your heartfelt opinion. Can we consider other things, or must I now close and delete the thread lest you take your leave forever?
    Last edited by Gabriel Suarez; 07-01-2019 at 11:30 AM.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    420
    Everything is contingent on how willing you are to train with it. Also, just because a handgun has a manual safety, that doesn’t mean you have to use it all the time. I can’t remember the last time I used one on my old Beretta.

    ETA: Good Lord Gabe, it’s as if you said the Earth was flat...

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    232
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    ...just because a handgun has a manual safety, that doesn’t mean you have to use it all the time. I can’t remember the last time I used one on my old Beretta.
    Also an important point, esp with a pistol like a Beretta 92 of some kind.

    Just...nobody do it with a single-action, like me and my 1911 when I was 21, lol. [Not suggesting you're recommending that, Badger, just a general remark.]

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