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  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Evansville, IN
    Posts
    84
    My understanding is that the rules of right-of-way in classical foil and saber were intended to replicate the idea of not ignoring your opponent's blade, thereby largely requiring the action of a beat or parry prior to your touch (this is excluding the concept of counter-time actions and stop-thrusts). First rule of life-and-death fencing in foil and saber would then be "Don't get touched."

    Classical epee is the evolution of the first-blood concept, thereby making the hand and wrist priority target areas and removing all requirement to deal with your opponent's blade for your own touch to be validated. This concept would then be simply described as "Touch first." I suppose then that your honor can be satisfied while you are dead man walking after your opponent's continued action. Your tombstone can read "I got the first touch!"

    In this, then, classical foil and saber are fighting (surviving), and classical epee is dueling (satisfying honor). Fighting does not equal dueling in this particular construct.

    Neither construct in its singularity is 100% useful to those that want to fight with a sword in the most efficient manner possible (preemptive attacking and not being attacked upon).

    Aldo Nadi, while recounting his duel in his book titled "On Fencing," identifies the failed concept of "simply touch first" when his opponent touched his wrist after his own first touch. He still bled, and he didn't like it. The sports journalist he was dueling taught him a valuable lesson.

    What I attempted to do for a while was to never ignore the opponent's blade after the first valid touch - to maintain the pure concept of that being a sharp object intended on poking holes in or cutting me. I should return to that.

    What you see on the strip today is two people who are attempting to be the first person to energize an electric circuit. Some people call it fencing.
    Thomas N. Fuller II

    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
    NRA Range Safety Officer
    Uncle Rudy's Indoor Firing Range Instructor

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,325
    I fenced for a few years with my son (who was nationally ranked and went on to the Jr. Olympics). I will tell you that foil and sabre are a joke. The limits on targets and the stupid right of way rules make it a silly game. Epee on the other hand is much more like fighting because there is no right of way nonsense and the entire body is open for targeting. They are all games at this point but of all the sword games, Epee is the most fight-like of the bunch.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,325
    The ultimate expression would be Sabre with Epee rules. There was a southpaw Golden Gloves guy that I often fenced with. We did the sabre with epee rules once for fun and to the horror of the 80 year old fencing master watching. Like Conan and Khal Drago fighting with axes rather than the stereo-typical duo of slim-moustachioed french gentlemen from the 1880s.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    The Big Northeastern NPE
    Posts
    308
    Funny story:

    A few years ago I was entrusted with the care and entertainment of a bunch of 8 year-olds in a local park. Many/most of them had Nerf guns, so I divided them into teams and told them to have at it. After a while, there was only one kid left "alive" on each team and neither could get close enough to the other for a kill shot.

    As the other kids were getting bored, I decided to spice things up and called the two survivors in for a chat. I set them up in a classical duel - each had one bullet, and they would stand back-to-back, walk ten paces, and then turn and fire. Everyone thought this was awesome.

    The first attempt, they took their ten paces, and turned and fired as fast as possible. They both missed. I set them up again, and this time told them to only walk eight paces before turning. This time, one kid turned and shot as fast as possible, while the other (much to my surprise) took two steps to his right before shooting (get off the X?) Again, both missed, but the kids all agreed that taking steps rather than just turning was cheating, and was not allowed going forward.

    For the third time I told them to take only five steps before turning. (At this point, all of the kids were completely enthralled with the "duel.") I wanted this to end so we could involve the other kids, so I whispered to one participant, "take your time turning and shooting. Let the other guy rush and miss and then you have all the time in the world to make your shot if he's not allowed to move."

    And that's exactly what happened. They took five steps, and then one kid turned and fired as fast as possible, missing his target. The other calmly lined up his shot, and ended the game. I wound up organizing duels between all of the kids for the rest of the afternoon, much to the amusement of some pretty cute babysitters who were hanging out in the park!

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,570
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,913
    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    Well done! The very thing.

    And the use of wax bullets in '92 Lebels for FOF sounds--familiar.
    Last edited by Papa; 06-12-2019 at 08:06 PM.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 4, 14 And a wakeup.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Made it to Free America
    Posts
    13,302
    Ive always wondered if dueling shouldn't be a pre trial option in criminal and civil cases. As in a ex boyfriend sent out naked pictures of your daughter, then you can face trial or face her dad for "grass before breakfast".....

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    152
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The ultimate expression would be Sabre with Epee rules. There was a southpaw Golden Gloves guy that I often fenced with. We did the sabre with epee rules once for fun and to the horror of the 80 year old fencing master watching. Like Conan and Khal Drago fighting with axes rather than the stereo-typical duo of slim-moustachioed french gentlemen from the 1880s.
    Is it possible that video of this spectacle exists and could be shared? Personally, I think that sounds fantastic.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    475
    IIRC, the Olympic dueling pistol event was shot with muzzle-loaders against a for-score target.

    WRT fencing, it’s lost it’s soul. Foil was always a sporting toy, its shortcomings were why epee was developed. But old school epee fencing was one touch...and fought on a grass strip. Today, it’s fifteen touches, on a high-traction electric piste. Which invites stunts like throwing away a few touches to feel out an opponent, and a very high-energy style. The old fencing books noted that electric scoring tore the heart out of epee.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    475
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Ive always wondered if dueling shouldn't be a pre trial option in criminal and civil cases. As in a ex boyfriend sent out naked pictures of your daughter, then you can face trial or face her dad for "grass before breakfast".....
    Pre-trial...or as a court judgement. An award of money means little. Receiving the injured party’s fire unarmed...that will get your attention.

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