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  1. #1
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    Default Opinions on this weapon retention technique

    Happen to see this video on weapon retention and close range gunfighting. Curious to see what the experts here think of it.

    <a href="https://youtu.be/kBzVNEbFxAY" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
    Last edited by Gabriel Suarez; 06-25-2019 at 01:46 PM.

  2. #2
    His trying to solve the problem of drawing before you are in the position to draw. Better to use empty hand skills (especially wrestling) to get to a position when you can draw.

    I come from a wrestling background and would like to work some FOF with this. My initial initiation is that his opening his back by raising his elbows and I'd be behind him and dump him.

    His critiquing the close 2 position taught by Craig Douglas without understanding it or executing is correctly. I've worked that tool set in FOF and it works.

  3. #3
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    Meh. Trying to get the gun out without creating the opening. Holding the gun like that limits your reach, and while it might have validity in some places if you end up there, its not a good place to start. Also just because one person shot themselves in the hand doesn't invalidate using the off hand to help create the opportunity go get the blaster out it just mean sometimes crap happens and try not to shoot yourself in the hand.
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  4. #4
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    Agree with some of the previous comments. Just because someone shot their hand, there's no reason to abandon another technique. And at this distance we have to know when we have space and time to draw. You definitely can draw at close quarters but you better know how to move, how to fight for your draw, and how to hang onto it after the gun has come into play.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that fighting is not one size fits all. There's not ONE technique that works for everything all the time. And fights aren't static, they are chaotic and dynamic...constantly changing circumstances and problems. The support hand extended out works, the elbow up position works, I can see where this technique can work. It's not a matter of having lots of tools in the toolbox...it's a matter of knowing how to move, knowing when to cover up, knowing when and where to hit, changing from one thing to another. It's not easy and a big key is that you have to do it right. Nothing works if you do it poorly.

    I don't hate it after just watching the video. I'd have to play with it some. I will say that generally speaking I don't like devoting two hands to one problem, I much prefer keeping the support hand free to do other work whenever possible. I much prefer using body movement (footwork, angling the body, dropping weight/driving up, etc.) to keep the gun out of his hands.

    As they noted in the video, a problem is if you drive the gun hand forward. With this skill you really need to be pulling it back and simultaneously exerting pressure forward with the support hand. Not an impossible skill to develop but great potential for error. Again, I'd have to play with this and see how natural this comes when under pressure.

    A couple things I like. It's incorporating solid structure with the forward elbow and keeping the elbow more or less on the line of attack. Really that's no different than the elbow across the face (I call it Batman, some people call it Dracula's cape, call it what you want) that we already teach. I like that the hand is already on the gun if the plan is to shoot from braced contact, makes it simpler to cycle the gun again. I like the elbow strikes and I like the driving forward with two hands.

    I don't dismiss it out of hand, but I also don't think this is the thing you branch to immediately.
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  5. #5
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    Mr Yamamoto is right on the money. Here’s my two cents, for what it’s worth. Weapon retention as taught in law enforcement circles most often starts with this failure of a phrase; “this is a disarm from the front, let the bad guy grab your gun”.

    I think attacks don’t always start as disarm attempts. From what I’ve seen one of the involved parties can inadvertently feel the gun and decide to take it.

    The holster is weapon retention. Your hands are weapon defense.

  6. #6
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    Gents...when adding a video...so we can stay right here and view it...do it this way

    video.jpg
    Gabriel Suarez

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  7. #7
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    My .02

    If the fight begins as a hand to hand fight and there are no weapons or other "disparity of force issues" , why are you drawing?

    Maybe I am way out of touch for the modern sensitivities we see daily (and in the most surprising places eh Brent), but every modern adult man should be able to knock the living shit out of another man. If that isn't possible its because you have not spent the time to make yourself strong, and have not devoted the time to developing some fight skills.

    No secret special technique will make up for that. Law enforcement has been on the hunt for that magical method that will turn the 115 pound girl recruit into a Rhonda Roussey. Sorry...that is a fantasy.

    If there are disparity of force issues or a weapon is evident and the goal is to get to the weapon, it MUST be preceded by a hand to hand response that opens the door for your weapon access. We have been doing this for a very long time. My own pre-gun martial arts career began in 1970 as an example. If what is being shown was viable, trust me, we would be doing it.

    On Craig Douglas' close contact shooting position...I like Craig and suggest training with him is a good thing to do. Tell him I said so if you see him. The CC position predates him however. Although not in the same expression, I was exposed to it by LAPD SIS Icon Marc Fleischmann in 1995.

    My own perspective on this is simple. Men have been fighting with swords and knives at close range for ages and they didn't cut their own hands off. Can we not use the same methodology with a firearm? I think we can if we have martial acumen. If one is asking for a method that will turn Bobby Boyscout (who has never so much as punched another kid on the playground and got hired because he is Academy Perfect) into Bruce Lee, sorry...such a thing does not exist and I see this video as an attempt to present that.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Pappas View Post
    The holster is weapon retention. Your hands are weapon defense.
    I recall an event when holsters began to get complicated. Initially we used simple thumbbreaks snaps and our predecessors used clamshells. The move was on for level three holsters and such. I resisted it and carried in my thumbreak Gordon Davis until I left the service. I recall one "training event" which was a sales presentation for one of those holster companies.

    We had an old officer soon to retire. Not your typical fat assed detective, he was a patrol sergeant, fit as hell and no uniform would hide the muscles or the ink on the arms. When the pencil-necked Lt asked him how he planned to retain his revolver in the clamshell holster in a mocking way, Sgt. Muscles said, "Lt., do you want me to show you?". "Sure....yeas...I'd like to see", replied the new admin holster monger.

    Sgt. Muscles stood there, and said in an unforgettable voice, "Come and take my pistol you little candy-assed motherfucker and see what happens to you".

    Silence.

    Then he turned around and faced the other way, giving his back to Mr. Safariland, "Shall we try it this way"?

    Again silence.

    Weapon retention is a state of mind. "Touch my weapon and I will blow your shit into next week as a reflex."

    Everything else after that is ancillary



    But nobody wants to think about such things today in our sensitive world.
    Gabriel Suarez

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  9. #9
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    What I see is a guy who is fully in defense mode until he made his draw stroke, then he shifted to offence. In my mind this is a hand problem, not a gun problem. If it's a hand problem you are far better off leaving the weapon in the holster rather than filling your hands with something you're hesitant to use.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    What I see is a guy who is fully in defense mode until he made his draw stroke, then he shifted to offence. In my mind this is a hand problem, not a gun problem. If it's a hand problem you are far better off leaving the weapon in the holster rather than filling your hands with something you're hesitant to use.
    THIS

    If you are at all hesitant, or if you don't have the confidence to use and retain a weapon at close quarters, best to leave it in the holster.

    This is where the Killing Within the Law material comes in. If you know you can justify your action, and have confidence in your ability to articulate it, you will not be hesitant.

    An example where knowledge really is power.
    Brent Yamamoto
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