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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    257
    This is from a Fred Perrin (French self-defense instructor) interview that I posted in another thread about street gangs in Paris. Never heard of it happening in the United States, but he says that in France the gang's attack dogs are trained to attack the victim when the victim is painted with a laser pointer.

    "Just like in the U.S. years ago, criminals in France train attack dogs to do their work for them, but here it's done in a special way. The dog is trained with a laser pointer, so whenever the light beam hits the victim, the dog attacks that area of the target. You can't pass without giving up your valuables."

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central IN
    Posts
    782
    OC is something I have no direct experience with. I would respond as to a weapon or choke from behind.
    Soli Deo Gloria

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    So.....here is another one...sort of like it. What if someone sprays you with OC?
    After getting OCed more than 10 timesI know how I respond. So I will be doing a mag dump on the person!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Faramir2 View Post
    I cannot imagine a scenario in which the sole fact is getting sprayed with OC
    Getting sprayed with OC is the sole fact that would justify a quick, lethal response.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,829
    To refine this a bit, I always find it easier and more compelling to articulate my actions if I have actual rather than theoretical experience. If I need to employ deadly force because someone attempts (or succeeds, for that matter) to deploy OC, a Taser, a choke, or some other distracting, disorienting or disabling mechanism, it's because I've been OC'd, Tased, or choked. You can't fight multiple adversaries when you're blind, you can't move if you're locked up during the five second ride, and as for the choke, I'm one of those guys who doesn't readily go out when LVNR is applied--which resulted in actual injury and time off when training partners became understandably frustrated.

    And before I hear the classic cop excuse that "I have a gun, too, and I don't need to be shot to know it's dangerous," the use of FOF, Simunitions and similar non-lethal munitions will quickly give you a healthy appreciation for how fast, painful and unpredictable even a simulated gunfight can be.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 5, 06. And a wakeup.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    4,199
    Short form, OC to a cop is a deadly force encounter. Even the IACP a notoriously liberal touchy feely organization that usually supports a lack of force that will get officers killed said the following :

    The IACP Legal Office Section wrote:
    “When a criminal attacks an officer with OC spray, it is with the intent to harm the officer, escape, or both. It is common knowledge that a high percentage of officers who are incapacitated, or have had their guns taken away from them, are later shot with their own weapons. It would be unconscionable to ask an officer to take a chance that the OC spray attacker is merely going to walk away after incapacitating the officer”

    Moreover this is taught in most Chemical projector (OC) user courses.

    Having been sprayed in training, and several times on the street (usually by a overzealous partner) it sucks, you can force an eye open (using an "ok" handsign applied to the orbit of your skull then forcing the thumb and index finger open) but it still sucks and your effectiveness is dropped significantly. Add the nose to toes snot monster and it is a generally crappy experience

    Any attempt to incapacitate an LEO defaults to a deadly force encounter, it doesnt always mean that we shoot them, stab them, or mash their head into the concrete repeatedly but the option IS on the table. The caselaw also supports this as more than one 5x5 officer (thats 5 feet high and 5 feet wide) has defaulted to a gun when they ran out of gas in a wrestling match and the lethal force was deemed justified.

    Tasers are the same on both sides, Im trying to find the video where one academy brought their cadets with sim guns to the Taser arena. They were clipped up and required to "shoot " the target with the sim guns when the taser was applied. Most could shoot, one actively engaged the target from the ground and started a mag change before the 5 seconds was up. My findings on Tasers is that it is about 33% effective (that is full lockup and incapacitation) the rest of the time it works a little or not at all.

    https://www.policeone.com/police-pro...-to-TASER-Hit/
    Last edited by coastalcop; 05-23-2019 at 05:57 AM. Reason: found the vid
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,165
    If they are assaulting me they are committing a crime. It is most likely only the first step (laser or OC) to make the crime easier/safer for them by trying to harm/incapacitate/injure me at the start of the crime(s).

    Why are they committing a crime? Do they want my money? Who carries a lot of cash in a wallet these days? Do they want my phone? It's locked with a code number/finger touch. They can't use it anyway, so I don't think they want my phone. Do they want to injure/kill me? I'm not waiting to find out or it will be too late for me, and/or my wife. Have they noticed I have a concealed carry pistol and they want to steal my pistol in order to use it to injure/kill other people? I don't know, but I can't allow that to happen, so I have to take steps to insure they don't get my pistol away from me. What ever takes to stop them.


    They've tried to injure/incapacitate me so they have limited my options for response. They chose the response/outcome.

    Just off the top of my head without deep thinking it. Which might not change my answer anyway.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    SE New Mexico
    Posts
    1,142
    As others have alluded to, at my age I am not starting fights, getting drunk at a bar etc.. so if I am hit with OC or a taser it is because I am being attacked. And I can't afford to assume that the application of the OC or taser is an end in itself. The perpetrator has already caused me harm and there is no reason to believe they are not planning to do more damage while I am partially incapacitated, so deadly force is clearly authorized in my mind.

    As far as the laser, I will assume deadly intent and look for the source while attempting to get my family and myself out of the area.
    “Every day the same thing...variety”

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,150
    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post

    Any attempt to incapacitate an LEO defaults to a deadly force encounter, it doesnt always mean that we shoot them, stab them, or mash their head into the concrete repeatedly but the option IS on the table. The caselaw also supports this as more than one 5x5 officer (thats 5 feet high and 5 feet wide) has defaulted to a gun when they ran out of gas in a wrestling match and the lethal force was deemed justified.

    There it is guys...and is there any reason why it is not the same for Joe Average-Dude?

    Any attempt to incapacitate, injure, or paint you as a target, in my opinion, justifies deadly force.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,829
    Yeah. Ask "Why me?" later. Take care of business now.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 5, 06. And a wakeup.

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