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  1. #41
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    Jan 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyOblivion View Post

    I admit as a PC that "restraining" someone, or "gaining compliance" could be a tricky thing legally, and I'm not sure where those lines are. However when doing nothing is not an option, and shooting them seems excessive, careful use of a LtL tool might make things go smoother.

    I'm curious about this as well. Leaving is simple and deadly force is clear, but this area less so.


    Real life example- an emotionally unstable relative that's become violent but hasn't crossed the threshold for lethal force. Sweeps/takedowns justifiable? Or am I overthinking it and it's as Gabe said that all unarmed strikes are reasonable?

  2. #42
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    Aug 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar01 View Post
    Real life example- an emotionally unstable relative that's become violent
    but hasn't crossed the threshold for lethal force. Sweeps/takedowns justifiable?
    Yes.

    But be careful not to present yourself as the primary agressor in a DV.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 0, 12. And a wakeup.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    5,436
    Think how medical types restrain an unruly patient Takedowns, holds, locks. Strikes are frowned upon.

    If you're acting like that, it's unlikely that anything will come back to bite you.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    In the good Old South
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    432
    I know Gabe in his first post asked about what you would do if a rough character showed up at the party/wedding and you wanted to use less than lethal force to keep the peace. I think it can be planned from our side what to carry and what to do, but we just don't know what the rough character is really thinking or carrying from his angle. I know you have limitations as to over reacting and deadly force. But you don't know that the bad guy may also have a sidearm or baton. You just don't know. All you know is your angle. What if he pulls his stick or weapon? All bets are off with OC and all the other tactics. A plan must be made for that as well when things escalate. Better to retreat and live another day?
    Dave

    "If your sport does not put grease, blood, or dirt under your fingernails, then it's just a game!"

  5. #45
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbug View Post
    I know Gabe in his first post asked about what you would do if a rough character showed up at the party/wedding and you wanted to use less than lethal force to keep the peace. I think it can be planned from our side what to carry and what to do, but we just don't know what the rough character is really thinking or carrying from his angle. I know you have limitations as to over reacting and deadly force. But you don't know that the bad guy may also have a sidearm or baton. You just don't know. All you know is your angle. What if he pulls his stick or weapon? All bets are off with OC and all the other tactics. A plan must be made for that as well when things escalate. Better to retreat and live another day?
    To me the difference here is proactive prep for the anticipated vs. the normal carry for the in anticipated. As I read through a lot of the comments I see 2 things. 1) you're are carrying what amounts to a LEO duty belt under your polo and jeans, or 2) you're not being honest with yourself about escalation of force and your responsibility in it.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  6. #46
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    Jan 2018
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    128
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    1) you're are carrying what amounts to a LEO duty belt under your polo and jeans, or 2) you're not being honest with yourself about escalation of force and your responsibility in it.

    1. Agreed. To me it's the same as bolting too much junk on your rifle till it becomes a heavy and awkward mess.


    2. Took this two ways:

    -Don't run the mouth when it's better to leave (always a good strategy and less headache).

    Or

    -It's negligent to not have the physical ability and training to handle escalations of force (probably one of the most important things talked about here- health?). Case in point, former boss carries up to 3 guns, sometimes OC/Tazer/ASP and got mugged. Wasn't able to draw till he was on the ground and being beaten. He's lucky to be alive. In contrast, my Uncle who is 20-30 years older than my former boss sent two thugs to the ER and the remaining two running without weapons. Uncle just had some scrapes and a grin for his trouble...


    What was a bit unclear for me was scaling back less lethal force but Papa and Sam gave some very helpful insight. I admit my situation is probably more rare but hopefully still helpful to others.

  7. #47
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    Oct 2010
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    Phoenix, Arizona
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    In my mind the only reactive less than lethal tools are your hands and feet, anything other than that I see as a proactive tools, you have to plan to use it.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  8. #48
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    Oct 2011
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    In the good Old South
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    To me the difference here is proactive prep for the anticipated vs. the normal carry for the in anticipated. As I read through a lot of the comments I see 2 things. 1) you're are carrying what amounts to a LEO duty belt under your polo and jeans, or 2) you're not being honest with yourself about escalation of force and your responsibility in it.
    Good points Greg. Especially #2.
    Dave

    "If your sport does not put grease, blood, or dirt under your fingernails, then it's just a game!"

  9. #49
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    Oct 2016
    Location
    NC for now
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    32
    I've seen one circumstance where a man was charged for using pepper spray on a woman. He was an idiot for using it at all,,,, the woman (a neighbor) was actually pregnant and in a loud face to face confrontation with his girlfriend.

    In his mind, squirting her with the evil water in the eyes was a way to make her get away from his girlfriend opposed to another method of breaking up the argument. So EMS was dispatched to treat the pregnant woman.

    I wasn't the charging officer, but I was on scene throughout the investigation. This doesn't make or break the question of if one should or should not carry less than lethal weapons in this thread, but it does show that this man viewed using pepper spray as less force than trying to separate the two women another way. It was all over a parking disagreement and he was charged with "Assault on a female", he felt he was right by his actions.

    The general public knowledge of when to use less than lethal weapons l believe is more easily blurred than when to use deadly force.

    I see a lot of crazy thinking people do a lot of stupid things, I know many here have and do as well.
    Last edited by millergun; 06-16-2019 at 11:04 PM.

  10. #50
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    Jun 2009
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    983
    Quote Originally Posted by millergun View Post
    I've seen one circumstance where a man was charged for using pepper spray on a woman. He was an idiot for using it at all,,,, the woman (a neighbor) was actually pregnant and in a loud face to face confrontation with his girlfriend.

    In his mind, squirting her with the evil water in the eyes was a way to make her get away from his girlfriend opposed to another method of breaking up the argument. So EMS was dispatched to treat the pregnant woman.

    I wasn't the charging officer, but I was on scene throughout the investigation. This doesn't make or break the question of if one should or should not carry less than lethal weapons in this thread, but it does show that this man viewed using pepper spray as less force than trying to separate the two women another way. It was all over a parking disagreement and he was charged with "Assault on a female", he felt he was right by his actions.

    The general public knowledge of when to use less than lethal weapons l believe is more easily blurred than when to use deadly force.

    I see a lot of crazy thinking people do a lot of stupid things, I know many here have and do as well.
    He was an idiot, but a pregnant lady getting into arguments she could avoid is stupid as well. She has too much to risk

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