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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,352
    Let's not forget chokes. I love the RNC and with my arm mass I can cut the blood flow to the head off and put someone down in about 2 seconds. The problem with them is if you don't have surprise you're going to need to work for the advantage before you can put one on, and if you're going to work for advantage in a lot of cases it's easier to incapacitate with strikes or striking their head against an inanimate object than it is to work for a choke. I bring them up because I tend to be more of a grappler than a striker and tend to throws before blows because in my experience I don't like getting hit, and because of my particular build, if I get inside your swing I can finish the fight faster than I can with striking.

    As far as LTL tools, I am not a fan of OC/MACE. It's been quite a while since I've had to work through even an overspray dose of OC, and if I did spray someone down that failed to reach the desired effect, I don't really have an urge to go hands on with someone dripping with it. TASERS/Stun guns, I don't see as a particularly good tool for non-LEOs for the reasons above. While they can be debilitating the effect is temporary and can also fail, it is a large tool with a pretty high failure rate so doesn't belong on the limited real estate of my beltline.

    Bludgeoning tools, ASPs, saps, flashlights, and the like. I like them, you can direct force to specific locations accurately, they increase your reach, and you can usually lay your hands on something to strike with almost anywhere you are. As above, I'm also not likely to carry one for the specific purpose and if I did, like a choke or pistol, I'm likely to have to go to throw hands to create the space I need to employ it.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
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    #thinkinginviolence
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    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    790
    This thread is gold.

    The above said, I have situationally carried an ASP P16 when out of country.

    As for OC, I don't see a significant downside to having Fox stream immediately available, recognizing that it has significant limitations due to weather (wind or rain) & potential cross contamination . I consider it as "nuisance repellent". Personally, I don't have a reasonably foreseeable use for OC fog that would outweigh the inherent issues with it.

    The above said, from my perspective the appropriate use of force is the primary issue...job 1...the tool, implement or device, whatever it may be, improvised or not, is secondary.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,026
    I think PCs who carry OC spray believe it is an easily deployed stand-off tool as well as a fight stopper. If it were either or both of those things it would be a top-of-the-line non-lethal self defense weapon for men, women, children and monkeys. But it isn’t either of those things, and carrying it conveniently, deploying it quickly and using it properly are difficult for many reasons. As a means to get to the second part of your defense plan, which is to attack physically and dominate, it can be a tool worth carrying. It can allow for some standoff distance. I have never had to use it.

    31318CE2-C774-45F0-A9C7-487517FA9A44.jpg

    I have carried this custom made wallet in my right rear pocket every day for over 25 years. The “utility” knife comes out almost daily and I keep it sharp. The OC is replaced every couple of years, and I spray the old one empty at a target to remain familiar with it and to check that the two-year cycle is valid. It is. I have had my wife spray me one time to learn what it does. When motivated and familiar with it, one can still be (somewhat less) effective physically. The stream canisters are much better than the spray canisters which are less controllable. The amount is sufficient for a five second burst. It’s enough.

    I usually carry a stout pen in my shirt pocket. I have a fixed blade push dagger on my belt, off side. I want options, because you cannot predict what the fight will be like, and playing in the less lethal field can suddenly turn into the lethal arena and require different tools and tactics. The gun and spare mag are there always.
    Last edited by CB3; 05-20-2019 at 09:16 AM.
    “Men of energy of character must have enemies; because there are two sides to every question, and taking one with decision, and acting on it with effect, those who take the other will of course be hostile in proportion as they feel that effect.” —Thomas Jefferson (1817)

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada, eh
    Posts
    77
    Up here in Canuk land carrying any kind of pistol is next to impossible.

    For me there is always a blade or two about but those are IMO lethal force, if I'm expecting trouble I'll pack a sap/jack or the like.

    Oddly enough those are A OK in Canada, go figure.

    As for OC I'll take a hard pass unless it's one of those full sized Bear Guard units, even then it's not a stopper but will gain you some time to do what's needed.

    Just my 0.02
    No good deed goes unpunished . . .

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    50
    My grandfather was a deputy for many years. He always swore that a sap was his favorite tool when guys started acting the fool. According to him, he only found one guy in 25 years that he couldn’t knock out with one shot; he was bull strong, so I have no reason to doubt him.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    2
    Interesting replies. When you are young things may be fine for hand to hand if you got skills. But as you get old, not as easy. And even if you got skills, who says someone does not have better skills or a weapon?

    When I'm in NYC or NJ I can't have much. Legal pepper, neck knife and tactical light (1200 lumens) and maybe a class 4 pocket laser.(Don't know if laser is legal.) If I am doing photos I can carry a monopod that can be used as a club. But reality I seldom do, too much BS to carry.

    Any sort of tactical folder that can be opened with one hand will get you arrested in NYC. If they see a pocket clip and knife is visible in any way it will get you arrested. Knife laws in NYC are draconian. You have to conceal a legal knife in NYC to be legal. A legal knife unconcealed is not legal.

    Back in the Rustbelt I like a ASP Airweight 16in, 2 or 4 oz nitrogen powered pepper, Benchmade Emissary assisted open, tactical light 1200 lumens. For guns I carry a SW Airlite titanium .38 snub. If things go to hell further, then will have to make myself uncomfortable and carry Glocks. Always have a snub in the car for a backup. The problem with snubs is 5 shots. But you can shoot them though your pocket, no holster is needed, dummy proof, reliable and they can be used for contact shots.

    Always test your pepper to see how it shoots. Some are pitiful and dribble out on your fingers. Nitrogen powered shoots in any position. Cone spray covers a wide area. If you don't think pepper does much, after you squirt some out rub your finger on the nozzle where the pepper came out and rub it in your eye. (Do at your own risk)

    Nowadays things are getting worse as time goes on. Many busybodies out there ready to attack you for wearing the wrong hat. You can't just live any more, you must conform to the party line. I try to stay low key and avoid problems if possible. If you retreat and someone is following you, good clue things may escalate. Get your weapon in hand so you wont be surprised.

    If someone has you on the ground in a choke, better grab your folder and start shredding them. Or if you got a snub, go for a contact shot. Inject all the hot gas as well as the lead. Always better to get a 2 for 1 sale when it comes to self-defense bang for the buck. That defense tool shown here previously may be good for getting out of a choke, but I prefer a sharp knife or gun.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    451
    A person fighting with a Physical Challenge needs to use a weapon. At the very least a Blade.

    This does not mean that you should not train in Karate or any other Empty Hand Style. You will reap all the usual benefits. Fitness, Moving better while fighting-twisting your Upper-body and spinning around. As well as simply being more confident in moving around during your day. Your posture will improve and together with the confidence you get from training will carry over to the way you carry yourself and make you less of a target.

    BUT IT IS IMPORTANT to always remember that the Karate Training is their to enhance your weapons training and that you will never be able to use Empty Hand Skills alone to protect yourself .

    Go on Youtube and you see guys in wheelchairs pulling of these amazing strings of techniques, that look impressive/effective. The reason for this is that their Training Partner is Feeding them attacks, Standing in one spot and waiting compliantly while the complete the sequence.

    The moment you instruct your Training Partner to attack in any way they choose they they will start to cheat immediately and use any trick they can think of to "win." Not wanting to be "beaten" by the dude in the wheelchair-Circling and Sniping from a distance. Causing all these carefully constructed sequences to fall apart.

    NOTE: Attack any way you want is not perfect-It is true that out of this need to win training partners will use unrealistic attacks to "win" For Example: Running around you in crazy circles until they have created a big enough Angle/Opening to attack you. Still you have figured out that your attacker may try and circle you, having learned something useful. So the next time you get to work with a Senior Partner he will also try and circle you but in a more realistic way this time and present you with the opportunity work on Effective Counter Slashes and Stabs.

    Having only two limps to work with-Needing to Move and Fight with my arms-Holding a can of Pepper-Spray in one hand takes one arm out of the fight-Leaving you with just Hammer-fist Strikes with that hand if the Spray does not stop the Attacker. You also lose the ability to turn the chair with that hand unable to hold the can and while grasping the wheel at the same time-Something that is possible with the Blade.

    Using Kali Drills to to train my Blade Skills I naturally studied the Stick as a weapon. I have both the standard ASP Baton and one that has a spring that allows you to employ wicked Strikes by simply snapping the wrist-Negating having to use body-weight to power the Strikes. Having said this I have not quite found a place for it.

    My Fix Blade hangs of my chair 24 hours a day-Hooking the Blade onto the brake using the belt-loop of the sheath-With a folder in my pocket on the same side. I find myself reaching for the Knive naturally a couple of times a day. Using it still it it`s sheath to give me a bit of extra reach if I need it. This movement having become instinctive and I have found myself with the Live Blade in my hand without thinking about it hearing that bump in the night.

    I have not found a way for the Baton to hang of my chair where it stays in place for the whole day and from where I can draw it with a 100% certainly every time without it snacking on something.

    I also don`t see a point in the fight where I would rather be be holding the Baton in my hand instead of a Blade. Once I am holding a weapon I am dealing with a Home Invasion, my most likely scenario and I will not be concerned with trying to use less than lethal techniques/weapons.

    FOOTNOTES:
    I think the whole Combatives Movement a coup l of years ago really hurt alot of Karateka. Who picked a handful of "Effective Techniques" and then continued to train in their Style for various other reasons besides Self Defence. In the process losing confidence in the Karate/Empty Hand Skills.

    In South Africa the rules regarding Impact Weapons are weird. You are not allowed to carry such a weapon but it it not illegal to use one in your home to defend yourself/To have one in your car, giving you very limited use.

    Blades & Pepper-Spray: The average Martial Fighter here in South Africa simply does not carry a knive anymore, even Pocketknives. Taking the Blade out of the acquisition for them. They also simply dump the can into the bottom of a handbag or the inside door-panel of their car and leave it there-Letting to I believe out of sight, out of mind.

    OSSU!
    Elfie
    HALFMAN HALFCAR

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,594
    POINTS

    1). If the karate you train is not effective, or if "combatives" seem necessary, you are not training real karate.

    2). If there is a disparity of force issue, wring it for all its worth.

    3). Karate is gunfighting and gunfighting is karate
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    120
    In my opinion, OC is more of a "manners-in-a-can" and that's why I carry a small can on me. I pulled the canister out of the plastic housing so it's only about the size of a AA battery. It's mainly to punctuate the "back the &^%$ off" to the bum or stray animal.


    Definitely not something I would trust my life on. Mind/body, gun, and knife are my primary means of protection.


    I own and have carried other various tools but usually because a gun was not feasible...

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    963
    I still think saps/jacks have their place, just hard to justify it as an EDC for a regular Joe. Special occasions do arise. Again my main issue with EDC saps beyond what has been stated, is how effective is a 6-7” and 8-10 oz sap versus a straight right or neck slap? The saps our LEO great uncles praise were probably Texan/Denver type saps that are 10-12” long and weigh a pound. How does one conceal an item that large? Basically like concealing a rainbow trout or catfish...still not sold on the little ones, maybe someone here has used a midget sap to great effect?

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