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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    44,609

    Default A MODERN DISCUSSION OF LESS THAN LETHAL FORCE

    I want to focus this on the PC (Private Citizen) and not the LEO. LEO have the bat-belt that they carry and company policies dictating what they can do and with which tools. As an illuminating point, the ROE (rules of engagement) for LEOs are usually more restrictive than for the private citizen.

    Less Than Lethal, for our purposes here, means anything not likely capable of killing. Thus a can of OC (as inconvenient to carry around in daily PC clothes as it may be) is not likely capable of killing...but an ASP baton may be. We already discussed the modern situations that in essence place guns, knives and impact weapons in the same category. For those not up to speed, please read that thread. And if you disagree, please give an argument to that effect.

    Unless you are disabled in some form, thus instantly creating a disparity of force issue, any less than lethal method will be limited. There are guys who love the can of OC. I have used these years ago with varying degrees of success. There are limits. A motivated opponent can fight through OC in the face. As well, it ends to get everywhere.

    And it takes pre planning as well as back up planning for these. A few years ago I was asked to provide security at a wedding. The father of the bride was rough character and was against the event and swore to come in and stop it. It seemed all the church menfolk were afraid of this guy and I was asked to keep an eye out.

    I showed up that day with Shield Maiden and Shop Monkey. Shield was going to be comms for LE should it come to that...she knows what to say. Shop was going to cover my six. My plan was simple. If homeboy showed up, he was going to be told he was not welcome and to leave. If he refused, he was going to be sprayed full can in the face and then secured. If he got physical, he was going to get sprayed full can in the face and feel what a full force Kyokushin low roundhouse to the leg is like.

    The OC was a pre-planned point of discouragement, not the only line of force. As well, the cans are a PITA to carry around. And there must be a plan for after the spray...as well as if it doesn't work.

    Then there are TASERS. I was sure somebody would ask. If you are going to carry one of these around, are you going to open carry or conceal it. Concealing a TASER isn't easy. And then what. You zap someone and it fails (and they do fail). Or you face a couple of someones. Great for LE use in a team, but IMHO, there is no place for TASERs in the Private Citizen's armory.

    Where does that leave us?

    There is either the existence of Disparity of Force or there is not. Disparity of Force is basically a court room phrase for "The other guy was bigger, younger, stronger, and meaner, and there is no way on God's earth that I could have defeated him fairly".

    The elderly, handicapped folks, women (maybe not Rhonda Rousey), kids, and such always have the disparity of force defense available. Guys like Greg and Brent and I...not so much. Although Greg may due to his multiple injuries...and me due to lesser injuries and advanced age (that was a joke...laugh...do it now).

    Yet, if Brent faced three guys his physical equal...then that disparity of force exists. When there is disparity of force you have justification to escalate to deadly force at once. You still have to be able to articulate why, but its there for you to use to not get your head beaten into Reginald Denny status.

    What if disparity of force does not exist, but there is still a physical conflict at hand? Men of similar size, age, and physical condition in conflict...a relatively even match at least on the face of it. What then?

    Excluding the tactics of deescalation, withdrawing, or preempting, which are all conceptual and strategic, rather than tactical, what remains?

    This is when your ability to deliver force with your hands and feet and elbows, and knees, and even head, will win the day. This is why I always tell my students that they need to check off that box on the list of skills. This is why I am still alive after my years on the street. Because barring the special circumstances of disparity of force and your ability to escalate, you will need to deliver what violence is justified with the weapons you were born with...more often than not.

    Discuss.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central IN
    Posts
    789
    If the need for violence is there, but the need for lethal force is not, then I need to know how to fight. I have no desire to train with and carry a taser, I don't trust OC sprays.
    Soli Deo Gloria

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,444
    Short of a specific mission requiring a specific tool (such as the wedding Gabe mentioned, maybe an Antifa rally if one was feeling belligerent and foolish), I see no use for any kind of spray carried on the body.

    MAYBE in a vehicle, maybe. But that would be a pain in the ass because I wouldnít want to leave it there when it gets hot.

    My guess is that the civilians that carry OC on a daily basis donít know how to throw a punch. But at least they know it so if itís a tool they feel better carrying then to each his own. I think itís a little silly but itís a free (mostly) country and people can do what they want.

    Tasers seem ridiculous to me for civilians. The uses I can imagine have nothing to do with self defense.

    The only less than lethal tool I carry on a daily basis is the Heretic. And even then, its main function is to help me draw my pistol. Sometimes you must fight for your draw and this tool makes it easier.

    10D2EC19-6037-40A2-99E3-BDCD973FA9ED.jpg
    Last edited by Brent Yamamoto; 05-19-2019 at 12:19 PM.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,143
    For a while I carried oc in a pocket, a tiny can. It was just not worth it. Only used it once, on a dog.

    I have also used "Uzi pens", which are really a gimmick. Any study pen would do, and at least offer an enhanced hands-on tool. Not a great choice by any means, and many of the kubaton techniques that apply are pain control, and we all know thats not good either.

    I like the idea of a private citizen LL tool focusing on enhancing hands on, not being a standalone tool. The Suarez offerings appear to meet that requirement pretty well.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    3,095
    1. OC and Tasers fail. I've told some here about The House of Payne. Epic fail of both OC and the Taser as crew-served weapon. Both have temporary effect. Many of us have fought through both.

    2. Impact weapons rule this niche. Fists, feet, elbows, knees, head, the Heretic, knucks, improvised weapons (including furniture).

    3. Sticks are good if used correctly. LEOs are restricted in targets and methods. Civilians are not. For example, using a baton like a Louisville slugger on a limb or striking with an ASP on the top of the head may have no effect whatsoever. Use the tip and target "tertiary" areas, and the results can be dramatic.


    I can guarantee that almost no one wants to EDC an ASP, a wooden baton or OC (especially OC, which is a gift that keeps on giving).
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 2, 15. And a wakeup.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Lower Golden State
    Posts
    153
    A fellow churchmember deployed his OC just the other night. Evening service outside, lots of kids and parents. A 15 year old autistic member (possibly crack baby) began having a breakdown of some sort, and could not be consoled. Verbal outbursts were turning to physical threats and motions, so this guy goes out to his truck and grabs his pepper spray. Upon returning and engaging the wind shifts and...yep...HE gets the face full. Problem child (6-3 & 265lbs.) is surrounded and 'held' until sheriffs arrive. Less Lethal is great, but only ONE tool in the tool box. Woe to those who place all their plans (and results) in one tool.
    DVC
    P.S. Sherriff says that with his mental conditions, problem child is 'incapable of committing a crime', so no consequences for him...regardless of outcome!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,426
    In the Joe Citizen category, people misjudge OC. It's not a weapon, it's not a fight ender. What it is, is a distraction device that allows you to set up the angle and distance to kick him in the knee or such.

    Given that, my choice of applicator is the ASP key defender. It has two advantages: first it attracts nearly no attention in hand or waistline, and second, it has inert cannisters that let you train with it. You hose them and when they squint you beat the snot out of them.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    212
    I guess this is a carry over to the impact weapon thread? I don't come here often but there is a deft of new topics at another forum I visit or maybe I am just bored with some of their responses? The way I see it is that very often the attack is spontaneous and you won't have time to get your less than lethal tool. You will be fighting to get to gun. That said, there are indeed times when you can reach for a less than lethal tool so why not have it? If you are in a NPE and can't have a gun, then you will want some type of less than lethal tool but that really isn't the topic. I will give you an example - I drive for a company and though retired with creds. my days of detaining and arresting someone are long gone. I keep a can of OC in the work SUV. I am waiting for a pickup at the airport and some homeless POS comes up to the SUV. and begins a conversation with me thru the open window. He wants to shake my hand and at that point, I tell him no and to step away from the SUV. He begins pounding on it instead. He goes to the fuel door and opens it. I am about to exit to deal with the problem OC in hand and a pilot yells at the guy and he runs back into the terminal. Someone beat me to the call and about 1 min later, 3 squads pull up. They bring him out and I leave before they arrested him or let him go. I played the dutiful witness to the police. Now I sure as hell could not have shot him (I am armed) and I really didn't want to go hands on if I didn't have to. I am 50, 5'4, and 140lbs. Now I can hold my own in training or effecting an arrest but why if I don't have to? Would he quit with a spray? Maybe, Maybe not but it buys me a slight advantage if he doesn't. Same with my knuckles argument in the other post. I could exit tell him to get the f'k away but if he doesn't and advances (still a no shoot situation) a punch is gonna be a lot more effective with knuckles and I don't break my hand.
    I think we could easily come up with other situations too. Walking my passive pittie one night unleashed (she is that obedient) and another pit I have never seen comes running up to us. He has decided he is in love and wants hump my dog who is mortified and looking to me to save her. Out comes the spray and the baton. He did not like the spray at all. The owner comes running up 2 minutes later and grabs him. He never said anything about the spray but if he was pissed about it...., again I have some tools I may need. In my mind, either the baton, spray, or knuckles takes up very little space, it is a no brainer IMHO.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    270
    Flat sap. Small, subtle striking device with continuum of relative force. Generally mine is off side back pocket, from jeans to suits.
    upsides are the enhanced punch and size. Downside is the relative grappling distance to deploy and the danger of head strikes.

    i keep OC in the car, but would be hard pressed to use it due cross contamination issues.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,609
    FROM THE OTHER THREAD

    I have personal experience using saps and sap gloves and even batons and PR-24s on suspects. The pussies will quit as soon as they see the stick come out, but that is not the issue for us today. The issue is that the real fighters...the predatory criminal type guys won't be intimidated and they will sneer at a strike to anything but the face, neck, or head area. Every bad guy I hit on the head with something needed hospitalization. And being in the head, there was often a good amount of blood.

    In the old parlance...perhaps some current LE can illuminate - a homicide means the bad guy is dead. It could be justified or not depending on things. An unsuccessful homicide is an ADW - Attack With A Deadly Weapon. Those can be justified as well, but the point is that guns, knives, impact weapons, crow bars, base ball bats, et al, are classified under the same category. So.....

    If you are justified in cracking them on the head with a steel pipe...justified because your life was in danger otherwise there is no justification...why the pipe?

    If the fight begins unexpectedly, and presumably inside arm's range since we are discussing impact weapons, you will probably not have it in your hand. So the real solution will likely involve hand to hand skills. If you are fixated in drawing the ASP, you will lose just like if you were fixated on drawing the pistol.

    So let's hope you successfully deflected the initial onslaught and now have an opening. If there is disparity of force, go right to guns. That is what I, a 59 year old third dan in full contact Kyokushin plan to do. I'm not going to spar with someone on the street if they are more formidable than me physically. Nor am I going to hurt them a little bit. I didn't start it, they are going down, and I have already justified my actions beforehand. If there is no disparity of force, then I am not justified in shooting them nor in cracking their skull open with a pipe.

    It really is that simple. Now in the other thread Sam Spade, a man whose opinion I value a great deal and who should know, mentioned the preemptive use of OC and mentioned a specific cannister. I think that is a good idea and a true bridge between force options. But other than that I simply don't see the value of carrying a skull cracker in 2019.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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