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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    212
    Quote Originally Posted by HeavySmoke View Post
    Sharkey, I understand what you are saying but without the necessity to detain it removes the need for civilian layers of force. The SAP is banned by most law enforcement agencies, that means a civilian caught using one is already severely behind the 8 ball. If I am working and caught in possession of a blackjack or a sap I'm losing my job.
    Why would a civilian need another layer? The civilian in most instances needs to either fire his weapon or get the fuck out. A deadly weapon is a deadly weapon and the gun simply has better optics that anything else.
    Hmm, never considered civilians dont need layers of force. Interesting. I think we as defenders or protectors limit ourselves by saying that. The court (if it goes that far) is not gonna say that the use of force scale for civilians is run or shoot either. What if the SAP was not illegal as TX is on its way of doing? Does that change things?
    I agree with you "in most cases" but some of us will face an attack that is not "average" Assaults are like weddings. They are all the same but each is different.
    The gun has better optics as a distance weapon but is it better at close distances than a knife or club?

    I am just not convinced yet to forego my knuckles or ASP yet especially since I have seen a need for them in the past. I actually like this thread, interesting analysis.

    Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,508
    Mine
    Quote Originally Posted by TomB7777 View Post
    So is there ever a time to be proactive when you really don't want to shoot somebody?
    Sure, could be. But again, if you bring a sap or any other impact weapon to the party, from a legal standpoint you're using lethal force. You can always make an argument that you needed to defend someone else without killing the aggressor, but I think you are getting on thin ice. A few LE people have commented on this, the optics of using a sap are not good (let alone the fact that they are usually illegal).

    I'm thinking about seeing someone on the ground getting beaten to death by an attacker.
    I think if you do not want to shoot them, your choice is using your hands. The aggressor is focused on the victim, giving you the opportunity to hopefully blind side him. If you do not want to shoot him, you must have the ability and confidence to use your hands. If not, then probably you'd better be prepared to go to guns.

    But if you really don't want to go to guns, and you're not comfortable going to hands...I would think you'd be better off picking up something from the environment rather than pulling a sap. "Officer, that guy was beating the victim to death. The victim was unable to protect himself and I couldn't stand by watching him die. I didn't want to shoot the bad guy but he was big and I didn't think I could take him. I didn't know what else I could do so I grabbed a chair and hit him, hoping to stop the attack and save the other guy's life."

    Thoughts from LE on this line of thinking?


    Or a girl alone being molested by a lone thug. Sure I can shoot them. But I would rather
    break a collarbone with a SAP and be on my way than to start shooting someone.

    I understand the sentiment but the optics of a purpose made impact weapon is bad. I think we're on much more solid, justifiable ground using our hands or going to guns.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    5,508
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkey View Post
    The gun has better optics as a distance weapon but is it better at close distances than a knife or club?
    I will say yes, if one knows how to use it at that distance. It's gun fighting rather than simply shooting. That includes the ability to integrate combatives along with our gun handling at bad breath distance.

    I understand the sentiment but legally either you are justified using lethal force or you are not. If you are justified then a gun is more acceptable than a sap.

    And hey, if you really want to hit someone rather than shoot them...you can always hit the guy with your gun. A glock slide to the back of the head will work every bit as well as a sap.

    And if we are worried about the gun getting taken away...well that's a valid concern. But if that's the case, then maybe we shouldn't be closing to contact distance with that guy in the first place.

    "Officer, he was too strong for me to stop the guy with my hands, but I really didn't want to shoot him. The best thing I could do to protect both myself and to save his life was to hit him with my gun."
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    3,180
    Wasn't so long ago that muggers used saps, sandbags, coshes and such, and we currently have an active hread in which hammers are the weapon of choice.
    I favor the use of hands and improvised weapons over dedicated, readily identifiable impacts weapons. I also see a distinction between impact weapons and "get the f### off me!" tools like blades or the choirboy.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 1, 11. And a wakeup.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    5,508
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    I also see a distinction between impact weapons and "get the f### off me!" tools like blades or the choirboy.
    Agreed.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  6. #46
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,771
    Here is my current impact weapon. It has traveled with me to ten nations multiple times...and on airplanes no less. I usually carry two of them. I don't need to draw them and I have used them many times in my life as the wear marks will show. I can carry it at the beach in my muscle speedos, as well as in any attire. I can even sleep with them if I choose. Yes, it takes a bit of training to use them well and that level of discipline may be too much to ask for some sorts, but even the panaceas sought after by the shortcut seekers need some attention in that area.

    If the problem is too difficult for these, the next step is deadly force vis-a-vis a pistol, or a blade if I am without the firearm. Its use is easily justified, and clearly (at least in the eyes of society and the first responders) a lower level of force than my Glock.

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    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    976
    I love saps and am one of the guys who has asked Gabe for a quality one for the SI store. That said, I really no longer carry one much and here is the reasons why -illegal or barely legal, perception if used and I feel like wielding a sap will give someone else the legal means of which to use lethal force on me, the fact that as an in shape guy who often tucks in shirts- the only ones I can conceal are small enough that I am skeptical of the efficacy of small saps, and lastly I honestly realized it was a crutch for not developing real fighting skills. I know that is a run on sentence but I have owned many and carried often and now have moved away from it. I will add that a small blackjack is a completely different animal and will break bones. It would be a depressed skull fracture as well but knowing you could shatter a hand/forearm/elbow or shoulder blade is reassuring versus a flat sap

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    5,508
    IMO every fighting man should KNOW he has the power to knock out another guy with his hands. There are a lot of aspects to H2H skills, and we can't all be good at everything. But none of it is worth much if you can't put enough horsepower into a punch to put a man down.

    Being able to connect is another story, but knowing how to hit with power is what gives us confidence.

    If you don't KNOW you can knock a man out when given the opportunity to land a blow...then you know you have something to work on.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    212
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    I will say yes, if one knows how to use it at that distance. It's gun fighting rather than simply shooting. That includes the ability to integrate combatives along with our gun handling at bad breath distance.

    I understand the sentiment but legally either you are justified using lethal force or you are not. If you are justified then a gun is more acceptable than a sap.

    And hey, if you really want to hit someone rather than shoot them...you can always hit the guy with your gun. A glock slide to the back of the head will work every bit as well as a sap.

    And if we are worried about the gun getting taken away...well that's a valid concern. But if that's the case, then maybe we shouldn't be closing to contact distance with that guy in the first place.

    "Officer, he was too strong for me to stop the guy with my hands, but I really didn't want to shoot him. The best thing I could do to protect both myself and to save his life was to hit him with my gun."
    Yeah not sure I would choose to use my gun as an impact tool though I did see it happen with a revolver and it worked as intended. The gun is a distance weapon that can be used as a contact distance weapon though I still contend a knife is better at bad breath distance. Maybe You can get gun out, maybe not. The gun out and suspect still a fair distance away only running his mouth and you might be looking at a charge. Meanwhile holding some type of club usually is not a criminal display charge and surely not holding a folder he might not even know you have. Also, maybe "we" aren't the one closing the distance.

    Deadly force is deadly force, no doubt so what the public finds acceptable is not too concerning. That is what your attorney is for. Also, maybe you can stop the bad guy with a club and not kill him? It is all kinda what ifs now. I mean don't carry anything if you want. As Gabe said, I will carry on. I was thinking after I posted earlier - what if you got into a physical altercation but it ain't deadly force. Would you prefer just to use your body or if given the choice and it was legal, use a club (let's forget about knives for now)? I would want the latter myself. It's just another tool in your tool box.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Here is my current impact weapon. It has traveled with me to ten nations multiple times...and on airplanes no less. I usually carry two of them. I don't need to draw them and I have used them many times in my life as the wear marks will show. I can carry it at the beach in my muscle speedos, as well as in any attire. I can even sleep with them if I choose. Yes, it takes a bit of training to use them well and that level of discipline may be too much to ask for some sorts, but even the panaceas sought after by the shortcut seekers need some attention in that area.

    This is one of the many reasons to be functionally fit/healthy.


    Not only is it the ultimate NPE weapon but nowadays it's a ^&%$ing super power!

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