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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    SE Louisiana
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    204
    A civilian with an impact weapon just strikes me as one more layer of decision making that we don't need to be dealing with.
    A LEO is required to engage people who need restraining and may have the time to evaluate the situation and decide what level of response is appropriate. We civilians do not need to do this.
    A problem in our life is usually going to happen fast and all I want to decide is evade or fight... If fight, then as stated already, it's either body weapons or deadly force. I don't want to add a third option of, well I may not be able to take this guy but he doesn't need shooting so I'll go with the sap. Now I raised the stakes to just whoop a guy's ass and that may end very badly in multiple ways. That's how I see it anyway, for what that's worth.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    44,508
    Exactly. But I may be totally wrong on this. My impact weapons are God-given. I have eight of them at all times...and in my life I think I have used them all at one time or another. Two fists, two elbows, two legs, two knees, and one head (used for striking not thinking...although there is that).

    I would like to hear a cogent argument for carrying an impact weapon...if there is one. The gent that caries the ASP for example. Tell me where it fits and why?. Why would one want to carry brass knuckles, an ASP, a SAP, or even a set of Nunchaku in the era where:

    1. Most people carry firearms
    2. There is disparity of force considerations
    3. Hitting a man in the head with a steel pipe is the legal equivalent of shooting them*.


    *...and hitting them in the head is the only place that guarantees even a little bit of success.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,201
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Exactly. But I may be totally wrong on this. My impact weapons are God-given. I have eight of them at all times...and in my life I think I have used them all at one time or another. Two fists, two elbows, two legs, two knees, and one head (used for striking not thinking...although there is that).

    I would like to hear a cogent argument for carrying an impact weapon...if there is one. The gent that caries the ASP for example. Tell me where it fits and why?. Why would one want to carry brass knuckles, an ASP, a SAP, or even a set of Nunchaku in the era where:

    1. Most people carry firearms
    2. There is disparity of force considerations
    3. Hitting a man in the head with a steel pipe is the legal equivalent of shooting them*.


    *...and hitting them in the head is the only place that guarantees even a little bit of success.
    Pretty much sums up where I am on the topic of impact weapons. The only way they make sense this day and age is in the form of a dual use NPE type situation.

    People with impact weapons get a burst to the face.
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  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    211
    Will an impact weapon be seen as a deadly weapon in a court of law? I would think a good attorney can prove otherwise. I carry an impact weapon for the same reason I carried one on duty. It is an intermediate use of force tool (unless I just intentionally swing it at the head). If all I have is a gun, a deadly weapon, all my problems can look like a need for a gun and they just aren't. An impact weapon in my opinion bridges the gap between my hands, knees, elbows, feet and a gun. Will I always have time to access it and will it always work? Of course not but neither is it a chore to clip the baton to my pants pocket or slip the knuckles in a jacket pocket. If I can drop you with either, great. If not, well then we go up the use of force scale.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,508
    The idea is to not have to worry about any court of law since victims don't go there except as a witness. I expect the victim status is easier to sell with having shot someone than in having caved in a skull.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The idea is to not have to worry about any court of law since victims don't go there except as a witness. I expect the victim status is easier to sell with having shot someone than in having caved in a skull.
    Especially with the majority of the population, i.e. the jury, having been turned into the biggest bunch of wusses in the history of mankind.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    44,508
    What I am saying is this - I have personal experience using saps and sap gloves and even batons and PR-24s on suspects. The pussies will quit as soon as they see the stick come out, but that is not the issue for us today. The issue is that the real fighters...the predatory criminal type guys won't be intimidated and they will sneer at a strike to anything but the face, neck, or head area. Every bad guy I hit on the head with something needed hospitalization. And being in the head, there was often a good amount of blood.

    In the old parlance...perhaps some current LE can illuminate - a homicide means the bad guy is dead. It could be justified or not depending on things. An unsuccessful homicide is an ADW - Attack With A Deadly Weapon. Those can be justified as well, but the point is that guns, knives, impact weapons, crow bars, base ball bats, et al, are classified under the same category. So.....

    If you are justified in cracking them on the head with a steel pipe...justified because your life was in danger otherwise there is no justification...why the pipe?

    If the fight begins unexpectedly, and presumably inside arm's range since we are discussing impact weapons, you will probably not have it in your hand. So the real solution will likely involve hand to hand skills. If you are fixated in drawing the ASP, you will lose just like if you were fixated on drawing the pistol.

    So let's hope you successfully deflected the initial onslaught and now have an opening. If there is disparity of force, go right to guns. That is what I, a 59 year old third dan in full contact Kyokushin plan to do. I'm not going to spar with someone on the street if they are more formidable than me physically. Nor am I going to hurt them a little bit. I didn't start it, they are going down, and I have already justified my actions beforehand. If there is no disparity of force, then I am not justified in shooting them nor in cracking their skull open with a pipe.

    It really is that simple. Now in the other thread Sam Spade, a man whose opinion I value a great deal and who should know, mentioned the preemptive use of OC and mentioned a specific cannister. I think that is a good idea and a true bridge between force options. But other than that I simply don't see the value of carrying a skull cracker in 2019.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    536
    Well said

    General Sherman said, "War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over."
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    “Adversity introduces a man to himself.”

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    3,018
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    That is what I, a 59 year old third dan in full contact Kyokushin plan to do. I'm not going to spar with someone on the street if they are more formidable than me physically. Nor am I going to hurt them a little bit. I didn't start it, they are going down, and I have already justified my actions beforehand. If there is no disparity of force, then I am not justified in shooting them nor in cracking their skull open with a pipe.
    Absolutely. I'm older, slower, more beat up, nowhere near as skilled. Street fighting is not a f***ing game.
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  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    OKC
    Posts
    383
    I have a pretty thick rattan cane that I carry a lot when I travel. It's thick but lightweight so it's no problem to carry all day. It would work just fine against pussies but it's too light to put a tough man out of commission with baseball bat strikes. I imagine it's very effective used like a bayonet and that's how I practice with it. I have carried it a lot when I go where I can't take a gun. All over Ireland, London, Rome, Vienna, Munich, D.C., into museums and government buildings, and professional sports venues. On public transportation and in airports I am often offered a seat or other polite considerations. I like to do a lot of sightseeing on foot and I often walk all over the cities I visit so the later in the day it gets it carries me as much as I carry it. I'm not quite fifty and still serving in the military so I don't need a cane but I really like carrying it, maybe it lends a little panache.

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