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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    3,367
    Quote Originally Posted by twinboysdad View Post
    I love saps and am one of the guys who has asked Gabe for a quality one for the SI store. That said, I really no longer carry one much and here is the reasons why -illegal or barely legal, perception if used and I feel like wielding a sap will give someone else the legal means of which to use lethal force on me, the fact that as an in shape guy who often tucks in shirts- the only ones I can conceal are small enough that I am skeptical of the efficacy of small saps, and lastly I honestly realized it was a crutch for not developing real fighting skills. I know that is a run on sentence but I have owned many and carried often and now have moved away from it. I will add that a small blackjack is a completely different animal and will break bones. It would be a depressed skull fracture as well but knowing you could shatter a hand/forearm/elbow or shoulder blade is reassuring versus a flat sap
    Here in New Jersey, a Sap (not a blackjack) is one of thr fee legal self defense carry options.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,873
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkey View Post
    The gun is a distance weapon that can be used as a contact distance weapon though I still contend a knife is better at bad breath distance. Maybe You can get gun out, maybe not.
    I think "better" is a subjective and very much depends on the fighter's capability. But no disagreement that the knife is a very dangerous tool close in...with the benefit that it doesn't malfunction and doesn't go empty.

    But more importantly regarding "maybe you can get the gun out, maybe not". The same can be said for any weapon in a reactive situation. And in my experience guns are much easier to get to under pressure than other weapons. It's not hard to find well designed holsters, whereas most knife sheaths leave a lot to be desired. And folding knives are even more difficult to deploy under pressure...I know a lot of knife guys that are good at it but IMO it takes a lot more practice to deploy a knife under pressure than a pistol.

    Of course proactive scenarios it's easy to draw anything.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

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  3. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,544
    Hmm.. some one really should address the 0 to five feet and pistol ground fighting envelope... oh wait...
    Geek Warlord
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  4. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,873
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkface View Post
    Hmm.. some one really should address the 0 to five feet and pistol ground fighting envelope... oh wait...
    Capture.JPG
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Pistol Groundfighting, Texas

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    998
    As I alluded to earlier, the saps cops romanticize are large. Like concealing a catfish or rainbow trout. The small ones that I can conceal in khakis and tucked in shirt, I am skeptical of being better than a straight right or neck slap. The midget saps aren’t much bigger than an I phone, 6-7” and 8 oz. A flashlight is actually very useful and gives you a blinding flash to throw a blow behind it.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    998
    https://d3protection.com/saps-and-blackjacks

    look at the first 3 on this webpage, these are super high quality by the way, but can you fish one of these out and land a blow? Some can, some can’t...

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Southeast United States
    Posts
    754
    Quote Originally Posted by endsoftheearth View Post
    Blunt instruments aren't classified as weapons, yet are concealable and highly effective. Can be carried in NPE, are silent and clean disablers.

    Rubber mallets cost $1 at Dollar Tree. If I want extra armament I could buy one anywhere on planet earth.

    A smack to the noggin would be bloodless, silent and hard to diagnose. You could even be seen to be"helping" the unfortunate man.
    If I remember correctly, Herr Glock was almost killed with a rubber mallet. I remember at the time thinking that was an interesting choice.
    Redneck Zen
    "Be careful what you get good at."

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    518
    On a Saturday morning working in and around the church one of the members arrived on foot having walked from his home, taking the dog for a stroll at the same time.

    Being retired and traveling extensively he was always showing me a new pocket-knive, multi-tool, some kind of weapon or piece of kit-Entrenching Tool. Helping to make life easier when camping or to keep him safe.

    Coming to a stop next to me he handed me a Walking-Stick and started to share with me everything that his latest purchased had to offer. It started with a hole near the top to thread some kind of wrist strap through, unscrewing the top of the cane the cap held a compass while the hollowed out inside could be used as a flask to hold some kind of liquor. He completed showing of his cane by pointing out the reflecting tape wrapped around it to make you visible at night and then stepped back and expectantly waited for a reaction from me.

    I immediately told him that it was way to light for my liking. But before I could offer further comment somebody called him over and being distracted he grabbed his Walking-Stick, excused himself and walked away.

    As he walked away I was left shaking my head wondering how you could have a Walking-Stick that could not be used for it`s two basic functions-With no weight behind it you could not use it to support your weight should you need it in case of an accident/To use it when crossing difficult terrain.

    The flimsiness of the stick also means that you could not press it into service as a weapon during your walk. It would break at your first attempt to Block/Deflect a weapon. And with no weight behind it you would not cause damage striking with it. You could not even trust it to thrust with-Cane Techniques

    The stick acting as a perfect metaphor of how the majority of society has lost the connection with fighting. This design turning into anything and everything except as a tool/weapon.

    OSSU!
    Elfie
    HALFMAN HALFCAR

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Posts
    296
    I started as a cop in 1981. At that time lot of the older guys around here still carried saps or blackjacks in the sap pocket of their uniform pants and did so until about '84 or '85 when such weapons were specifically prohibited by policy. Most of the guys used them as a backup impact weapon, in case they bailed out of the car in a hurry and forgot their straight baton.

    I bought a Bucheimer "Convoy" blackjack and another model with a lighter weight (Maybe a Bucheimer #7980?)


    One of my older mentors who worked for the Sheriff's Office told me to use the lighter one. I carried it as a backup until policy changed.(This same guy had been in a battle with a drunk sometime in the late 70s and ended up hitting the guy along side the head with the edge of a flat sap (by accident) and just about tore the suspect's ear off. No lasting repercussions from that, but he immediately switched to carrying a lighter weight round blackjack with the spring as a result. I saw him break a guy's collar bone with it in the parking lot of a road house one night when we went to a fight at bartime. That fella’ quit fighting immediately . . . )

    I traded another old timer a black GI wool sweater for his sap gloves. Only used them once, breaking up a fight in a parking lot outside a bar. A strong punch to the sternum stopped a guy who wanted to fight me dead in his tracks.(Which was good, because I'm a big boy and he was about the same size and a lot more muscular (and certainly meaner) and I think I would've been in trouble ifhe'd have gotten his hands on me or landed a few punches)

    I've carried a 26 inch ASP expanding baton for years and only had to use it twice, both times trying to break up a fight in the parking lot of a bar at 0200. Both times the individual stopped advancing after I hit them on the outside of the thigh. They were NOT incapacitated.
    Last edited by Jeff22; 07-31-2019 at 03:26 AM.
    "We should always try to do the right thing and the moral thing and the legal thing, but first we should do the SMART thing."
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    Defense Training International

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,973
    I just saw a video on FB where a guy resisted 2 cops, 3 tasers, and baton/boot strikes until the sergeant showed up and put a choke hold on the dude while the other 2 worked the arms to get cuffs on him. From a civilian standpoint I thinks this speaks to skills being better than tools in this area as the most effective thing used was a RNC, even though they had all the cool, big money toys.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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