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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    480
    I know it's not the point of discussion here, but this thread is making me miss my PR24.

    That said, I used to carry a sap in the back pocket of my uniform. My thinking was that any tweaker I had to use it on was less likely to get his (infected with all sorts of nasties) blood on me.

    Never used it for much more than a door knocker, though.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    931
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Yeah...I know...but from my POV, with what I wrote, the salient question is "why bother"?

    If I missed something I am willing to change my mind.
    Does your thinking about blades differ from impact weapons, or does the same calculus apply?

  3. #33
    I like OC and there are some form factors that make it simple to carry. I carry a Saber Spitfire in my coin pocket. When I have a light jacket I add a Defense Technology First Defense OC Stream MK-6. It has a pocket clip and is a little larger than a folding knife. In winter clothing Fox cans are easy to carry.

    I don't expect to access OC within a fight. It's for managing encroachment when someone's victim selection process has failed. I learned a good trick from Kelly McCann of walking through a chock point (between cars etc) and leaving a trail for someone following you to walk through. I used that in the Safeway parking lot in Lahina Maui when a couple of island boys thought they would f*ck up a tourist and were following me back to my car at 11pm (I ran a counter surveillance route to confirm intent). Worked great. Just left a cloud and kept going. They walked right into it.
    Last edited by TwoBodyOneHead; 05-21-2019 at 07:16 AM.

  4. #34
    I'll be honest I've never lived in an area that allowed any sort of impact weapons. I prefer to think of impact in terms of psychological. If I shove this in someone's face, will it have enough impact that they disengage? If I have to go to weapons I'd rather go full bore than just steadily "grade" the response, just because I have a gun doesn't mean that I have to shoot, but I'd rather be ready to shoot. I've had exactly 2 incidents in my life where simply seeing the gun made enough of an impact to cause them to disengage and give up entirely.
    I've seen cleaner lines and sharper edges on a box of donuts --- Jon Payne

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    211
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Sharkey, you seem to have made up your mind. Good for you...drive on. But you are mistaken to think the next step after a fight is court. That is what the Aftermath Mafia wants you to believe.
    Maybe the next step is court, maybe not. As stated, each incident is its own. A lot is gonna depend on the LEO response and the individual himself.. Ok, the next step is not court, so what it is it? Coming from LEO myself, I find it a bit odd that some here are not for an intermediate weapon for civilians when they themselves carry one on duty. Even your store sells forms of intermediate weapons for NPE. Sure, LEO have a duty to arrest and that is different than civilians but I would contend an assault on a person is very similar to an assault on a LEO. I would contend a deadly force incident is not much different either.
    When I was on patrol, many viewed the knife as a tool to cut stuff not as a weapon. Kudos to Spyderco for popularizing the clip. Now we have whole courses on Clinch picks and fixed blades carried on front waistline to use as a weapon. Stabbing someone was viewed as horrible at the time but again, if someone needs killing, what difference does it make if I use a gun, a knife, a club, or my hands? If charged, the prosecutor will spin it to their advantage but again, competent defense attorneys can shut that down. There are many times I am walking at night or across a parking lot in a dubious area carrying a folder. If attacked, it is what I will use. I will face the fallout later.
    The club, knuckles, OC, sap, etc. is simply a tool, why not have it in your toolbox? Will you need it? Most of us never will but it is still nice to have. I think I used my ASP 3X actually striking someone. It stopped one person. The other two continued but I still think the strike gave me an advantage. I also got clunked on the head with an SL20 by my "backup" I got 13 staples and rolled off the car suspect to let the other two guys take him. I remembered that it hurt like hell and it was a fight stopper for me but I am still here to type this.

  6. #36
    I travel on planes a lot, so I look at improvised impact weapons as a force multiplier as needed. Obviously I'm not carrying a sap on a plane. Similarly, being in strange places, I look for any advantage I can get on the road. That said, I'm not deploying any improvised weapon to "slow things down." My plan is to stop the attack with whatever I happen to have.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    249
    Sharkey, I understand what you are saying but without the necessity to detain it removes the need for civilian layers of force. The SAP is banned by most law enforcement agencies, that means a civilian caught using one is already severely behind the 8 ball. If I am working and caught in possession of a blackjack or a sap I'm losing my job.
    Why would a civilian need another layer? The civilian in most instances needs to either fire his weapon or get the fuck out. A deadly weapon is a deadly weapon and the gun simply has better optics that anything else.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,119
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkey View Post
    Maybe the next step is court, maybe not. As stated, each incident is its own. A lot is gonna depend on the LEO response and the individual himself.. Ok, the next step is not court, so what it is it? Coming from LEO myself, I find it a bit odd that some here are not for an intermediate weapon for civilians when they themselves carry one on duty. Even your store sells forms of intermediate weapons for NPE.
    The way I see it is this, since I don't have the directive to take someone into custody, don't have an ROE, and don't have an escalation of force policy guiding my behavior, if I can't handle it with my hands I'm shooting. The intermediate weapons, in my opinion, are something to be carried when you can't carry a pistol.

    Sure, LEO have a duty to arrest and that is different than civilians but I would contend an assault on a person is very similar to an assault on a LEO. I would contend a deadly force incident is not much different either.
    When I was on patrol, many viewed the knife as a tool to cut stuff not as a weapon. Kudos to Spyderco for popularizing the clip. Now we have whole courses on Clinch picks and fixed blades carried on front waistline to use as a weapon. Stabbing someone was viewed as horrible at the time but again, if someone needs killing, what difference does it make if I use a gun, a knife, a club, or my hands?
    The knife, for me is for use in limited space after the fight has already started. If someone is too close for me to risk going to my gun, creating space with a knife is a good option.

    If charged, the prosecutor will spin it to their advantage but again, competent defense attorneys can shut that down. There are many times I am walking at night or across a parking lot in a dubious area carrying a folder. If attacked, it is what I will use. I will face the fallout later.
    The club, knuckles, OC, sap, etc. is simply a tool, why not have it in your toolbox? Will you need it?
    As a non-LEO I am only going to carry so much on me without looking like batman or a weirdo, and since I'm fit I only have so much real estate around my waist to carry things. Because of this I prioritize what I'm going to load myself down with. I don't even normally carry a flash light as I see it as a "nice to have" not a need.

    Most of us never will but it is still nice to have. I think I used my ASP 3X actually striking someone. It stopped one person. The other two continued but I still think the strike gave me an advantage. I also got clunked on the head with an SL20 by my "backup" I got 13 staples and rolled off the car suspect to let the other two guys take him. I remembered that it hurt like hell and it was a fight stopper for me but I am still here to type this.
    Mine in Bold
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  9. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,280
    Agreed on all points with Greg.

    As much as I like impact weapons, given the legalities as well as limited real estate on my body, there is no place for them with my EDC.

    For times where one can’t carry a gun, something like a cane makes sense. It can be employed immediately, it is carried in the open.

    Something like a sap, carried in the pocket, I don’t see this as particularly useful in a reactive role. As a proactive tool, where one can draw and initiate hostilities, they make sense...but I don’t see that as a self-defense role.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

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  10. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    Something like a sap, carried in the pocket, I don’t see this as particularly useful in a reactive role. As a proactive tool, where one can draw and initiate hostilities, they make sense...but I don’t see that as a self-defense role.
    So is there ever a time to be proactive when you really don't want to shoot somebody?
    I'm thinking about seeing someone on the ground getting beaten to death by an attacker.
    Or a girl alone being molested by a lone thug. Sure I can shoot them. But I would rather
    break a collarbone with a SAP and be on my way than to start shooting someone.

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