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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    That's what makes adrenaline-evoking training so important here. You need scenarios with positive outcomes under stress to imprint a pattern different from the thousands of repetitions that experience has laid down. Otherwise, you're likely to get the default response in a scene that's similar to the ones already lived.
    Well said Sam. I was once "accused" of being predisposed, thus the term as it hangs in memory. But habituated and conditioned is correct.

    However, it is what one thinks inside...what one decides he will do and expect himself to do, during a black Swan event that is the deciding factor. Everyday, we think of the black swan...we expect to see it, to touch its feathers, and we war-game how our interaction with it will go. And at the end of the event, how we will bring it to a conclusion that is satisfactory for us personally. Those who do this are the ones we want by our sides as we burst through the door. They are the ones everyone expects will return to base with empty magazines. But the trick is self-selection I think.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
    Predispositioned...I think that's not the right question.

    Habituated, conditioned....those (IMO) are the operative terms. The sheer overwhelming volume of arrests, peaceful or otherwise, compared to shoots ease cops into a pattern of behavior. When the black swan event rolls in, the mind works to fit events into the pattern that has dominated behavior for years and years. People don't act only as trained; they act in terms of their experience as well. Or, if you prefer, all those for-real calls count as training, too.

    That's what makes adrenaline-evoking training so important here. You need scenarios with positive outcomes under stress to imprint a pattern different from the thousands of repetitions that experience has laid down. Otherwise, you're likely to get the default response in a scene that's similar to the ones already lived.
    This is a good point, and might even be an advantage for non-LEOs in an active shooter scenario if they've had proper training and carry the proper mindset for the event, as the mental conditioning isn't watered down by the daily imprinting of how things are "supposed" to go down.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  3. #13
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    Oct 2005
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    I do think predisposition is a significant element as there is, in human nature, the full continuum of 'the ability to kill' from complete submissiveness to pathological murderers. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, with 'warriors' tending higher up the scale. But training / conditioning is also a significant factor, I believe those with military training in combat arms are less hampered by the 'analysis paralysis' of the legal justification issue. Less so nowadays with restrictive RoEs but back in the cold war it was simpler. Ideally I believe for armed civilians we need to combine the simple decisiveness of the combat soldier -'destroy the enemy' with the law enforcement officer's justifiable lethal force to give us a workable parameter in which we can 'kill within the law' (someone should do a class on that...wait a minute )
    ...If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"...
    If - Rudyard Kipling

    ECRG, June 2006
    Warrior Skills Camp, July 2009

  4. #14
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    Essential Aspects

    1. High level of marksmanship ability via Skill and Equipment
    2. High level of applied tactics and concepts via proper and complete force on force indoctrination and associated disciplines
    3. Complete understanding and internalizing of real world ROE via memorization and daily exercise of the Flowchart of Justified Deadly Force

    Have those three...really have them, and any active shooter (crazy guy or jihadist) that targets anyplace you happen to be standing, is in far more danger from you, than you are from him.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  5. #15
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    4. Gentleman Warrior self-image that sets the stage for the requisite mental attitude, and simplifies action.


    Have those four...really have them, and any active shooter (crazy guy or jihadist) that targets anyplace you happen to be standing, is in far more danger from you, than you are from him.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
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    Northern California
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    Seems our training philosophy could be distilled down to 2 fundamental concepts:

    1. Having the knowledge and mindset to shoot them at the right time and place.

    2. Having the equipment and skillset to hit them in the right place, every time.


    And I like what Greg said about the simple command of “Down.” We trained that as our primary command, but then we had to train a bunch of our guys that you didn’t HAVE to say it on every entry, every time...


    EDIT: Posted this from my mobile phone, and for some reason didn’t see Gabe’s 4 rules posted above. Gabe’s are more eloquent, and more expansive from a lifestyle/self-identity perspective. I especially like #4.
    Last edited by Marco Innocenti; 05-09-2019 at 03:53 PM.
    VIRES HONOR VIRTUS FIDES

  7. #17
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    From A Post On My Facebook Group

    "I don’t think anyone, officer or not, WANTS to kill someone. They may talk tough on the surface, but deep down, it goes against our nature. Maybe this is due largely to our societal upbringing, since there have been many groups and individuals who are extremely savage and kill for tradition, pleasure, religion, whatever.

    There are psychological prices to pay after the shoot, justified or not. Most will question for the rest of their lives if they did the right thing, wondering if they could have done something different to neutralize the situation. Not unlike much of the PTSD in soldiers.

    Can this be trained out of an individual? Probably. But I’m guessing officers are trained that killing a suspect is the last resort. I’m sure that shooting the wrong guy is always in the back of their minds. How many people would fit the description of blue jeans and a t-shirt?

    Certainly not an easy topic to discuss as it is very complex, and there is no easy answer".


    My Reply:

    I disagree and submit it is an individual matter. To say this is a blanket statement that doesn't apply everywhere. I killed a number of suspects when I was on the job (an active shooter, a few armed robbers, and home invader types) and do not have any PTSD issues, nor ever had a hard moment about them. I have several LE brothers that can say the same. As well several SF, SRT, and NSW brothers who are members of my tribe that have dropped far more bad guys without any issues.

    To say that nobody wants to shoot the bad guy doesn't apply to everyone. Many guys are attracted to the various "point of the spear" jobs specifically from a desire to deploy on the bad guys. I think it has more to do with self image and self expectations. I doubt guys go into SF and NSW wishing they never have to kill a terrorist. I think its the same for many LE although they dare not say that.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    5,398
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    From A Post On My Facebook Group
    There are psychological prices to pay after the shoot, justified or not. Most will question for the rest of their lives if they did the right thing, wondering if they could have done something different to neutralize the situation. Not unlike much of the PTSD in soldiers.
    Yeah....no.

    Your correspondent has fallen into a projection trap: "I'm normal, I see myself having problems, therefore any normal person will face the same problems." The fallacy there is that "normal" in humans spans such a huge range. Just because it's "normal" to be a couch potato who gets winded in a quarter mile doesn't mean that the marathon runners are abnormal, or even uncommon.

    Of all the things in my career that have brought stress, shooting people doesn't even crack the top 10. Same for the people around me who've BTDT.

    Oh, and as to wanting to shoot people, here's my public/departmental statement: "I don't want to shoot people, but I know it's going to happen to someone. It might as well be me, since I'm trained and prepared and know that I'll come through it all right."
    Last edited by Sam Spade; 05-09-2019 at 07:12 PM.
    __________

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  9. #19
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    Oct 2010
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    His "normal" isnt mine and never will be. I never had guilt or PTSD. It was part of the gig I busted my ass to get. Fuck those guys and anyone that even looks like them.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,920
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    From A Post On My Facebook Group
    [I] They may talk tough on the surface, but deep down, it goes against our nature.
    It most assuredly does not go against our nature. Dig deep enough and there's a foul, savage, murderous demon in even the most vocal virtue-signalling snowflake.
    It's why there are homicide detectives, and why there's a commandment against murder.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 4, 11. And a wakeup.

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