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  1. #1
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    Default ARE YOU PREDISPOSED TO ACT OR TO NEGOTIATE?

    I was reading the debriefing from the recent active shooter events. It appears the LE responders often had sufficient descriptions of the shooters. Yet the debriefs state the officers "confronted" the shooters and subsequently captured them.

    I don't know if the rules of engagement have changed since the neolithic age, but in my opinion, shooting a man that has shot others, whose your description is clear and the ambiguities of identification have been markedly reduced is justified at first sight. Even if they are not currently involved n the act, but the contact is contemporaneous to the act.

    I believe its important to hold fire when you are not certain of what you have, or if the bad guy is clearly and obviously surrendering, but with a reasonable certainty of identification and lacking a clear submission on their part, the hesitation created by the desire to negotiate and capture places the good guys in danger and in essence places the life of the bad guys ahead of the life of the good guys.

    Is this a trained issue, a societal one, or what? I do know we shot many more bad guys back when dinosaurs roamed the earth when these parameters were met.

    Thoughts?

    Thoughts on why this is?
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

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  2. #2
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    I'm predisposed to act. I've been "trained" to negotiate.

    When I'm no longer subject to any ROE but God's and my own I'll be scrubbing that training from my hard drive.
    Last edited by Papa; 05-08-2019 at 08:57 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Yes...we were "trained" as well...but like you, we knew what was required training and what we really did was often not the same. Common sense saw that. I can't help but think that the lack of the understanding of the differences, and the inability to act is responsible for so many good guy deaths these days.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Yes...we were "trained" as well...but like you, we knew what was required training and what we really did was often not the same. Common sense saw that. I can't help but think that the lack of the understanding of the differences, and the inability to act is responsible for so many good guy deaths these days.
    I agree.

    This paralysis is in part reinforced by what comes out of the entertainment industry. Everytime I hear the words, "Just give me the gun," or "Just put down the gun," after the tenth time of asking, I bit down hard on my back teeth. People who have no exposure to criminals and crazies, and who have no real understanding of the dynamics of violence, accept what they see as the desired and expected outcome.

    And hold cops to that standard.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 1, 10. And a wakeup.

  5. #5
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    We used to call this analysis paralysis and found that the best option was to take action, break cover in a pair, and aggress the subject quickly while yelling "DOWN, DOWN, DOWN". What we found was it elicited only a few responses. 1) Spooked the subject into a negative fear reaction (doing something stupid and getting shot). 2) Broke through their mental state and they dropped to the deck (not getting shot). 3) they froze while we covered the distance (at which point they got jacked up as we drove them to the ground and "repositioned" them multiple times).

    So basically it was kept simple. One command with three choices that led to three different levels of discomfort.
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  6. #6
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    Gun fighting is negotiating at 1500fps?
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  7. #7
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    I think this is a deeper societal issue.

    So many aspects of our society are geared towards neutering aggressive tendencies. Some of us were raised otherwise, but I think without a conscious effort on the part of parents when raising their children, and then on the part of the individual when they can make conscious choices, the default in our society is weak-willed, compliant individuals.

    Then there is the CYA tendency that is human nature. We all have that to a certain degree and it's understandable. But "leadership" in organizations largely lacks the spine to take a strong stand on anything meaningful. So the tendency is to choose the most benign course because that attracts the least attention and criticism, even if creates victims in the process.
    Brent Yamamoto
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    Then there is the CYA tendency that is human nature. .
    This has always been the case...BUT

    Knowledge of the rules of engagement, knowledge of what comprises justification, and knowledge of how that is expressed in the real world covers that quite well. CYA is fine, but risking your life unnecessarily as a result is the height of foolishness. What a lack of knowledge leads to is hesitation at the moment of truth, and then, extreme over reaction when that hesitation eliminates any advantages you might have had.

    The other aspect is that of justice. Do we as grown men really want to see a long drawn out soap box for people such as these to exhibit all of their gripes against life, society and their victims? Or do we prefer to have them discussed as the "dead suspects"?

    I submit that anyone (LE or not) on scene is justified in killing these people on sight, barring the circumstances listed (namely uncertainty of identification and clear and witnessed surrender). And that not doing so is a mark of a deep societal problem and in the case of LE an institutional lack of leadership and training, among other things.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #9
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    Predispositioned...I think that's not the right question.

    Habituated, conditioned....those (IMO) are the operative terms. The sheer overwhelming volume of arrests, peaceful or otherwise, compared to shoots ease cops into a pattern of behavior. When the black swan event rolls in, the mind works to fit events into the pattern that has dominated behavior for years and years. People don't act only as trained; they act in terms of their experience as well. Or, if you prefer, all those for-real calls count as training, too.

    That's what makes adrenaline-evoking training so important here. You need scenarios with positive outcomes under stress to imprint a pattern different from the thousands of repetitions that experience has laid down. Otherwise, you're likely to get the default response in a scene that's similar to the ones already lived.
    __________

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    in the case of LE an institutional lack of leadership and training, among other things.
    I agree with your post 100%. What I was really trying to get to is the CYA tendency that is baked into the issue above.
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