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  1. #11
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    Originally Posted by DogDoc Barnetmill,




    Organisms don't evolve to do anything. It's all an accident and dumb luck. Primates didn't evolve bigger brains because they were sucking the marrow out of bones instead of eating the entire rest of the animal. They evolved bigger brains because they had genetic mutations that were advantageous. Nutrition does not drive mutation.


    Quote Originally Posted by krav51 View Post
    So you are saying there has never been a case of biological adaptation over millions of years due to environmental influences? This is certainly not my field and i'm sure as you are well aware ,we are all taught in high school that everything is a result of adaptation. Interesting to hear another view.
    DogDoc is using accident and dumb luck to describe probability, randomness, and non-directed outcomes. I am not really sure about that, even if that is close to what is usually taught. There is also selection pressure that will ultimately drive evolution in a certain direction; through, what we are taught is that these are completely random events at the genetic level. The random events are the mutations/variance that are present. Selection is not random in that only fit organisms as determined by reproductive success that because they are bearing the suitable traits reproduce better. Here is where philosophy-religion can have a say.

    Big issue, just because today certain traits are desirable, does not mean those organisms will last forever. There are lots evolutionary dead ends. Species evolved, live for a while, and then vanish from the earth.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by krav51 View Post
    So you are saying there has never been a case of biological adaptation over millions of years due to environmental influences? This is certainly not my field and i'm sure as you are well aware ,we are all taught in high school that everything is a result of adaptation. Interesting to hear another view.
    That is what we're taught and what we're being taught often involves sloppy language that makes students (and sometimes researchers) misunderstand the actual process. It seems like only semantics, but the fact is language creates the framework of thoughts and ideas. This was my primary beef with the article. They made a number of inferences about their findings (that cave men busted bones with rocks) based on that sort of sloppy language and thinking. They found the broken bones and the rocks and instead of publishing a paper on what they found and extrapolating the only thing they legitimately could about it (that maybe they were eating the marrow), they start making inferences about inanimate matter (bone marrow) driving cerebral evolution.

    To answer your question (which is a great question by the way), "adaptation" infers intent. Genetic mutation has no intent. There is only success or failure. Either the genetic mutation is a good thing or a bad thing.

    Now, it is certainly true that whether or not the mutation is successful is largely due to the circumstances of environment, the pressures of predation and other natural things. But the mutations don't respond to those things. They just happen. For example, a mutation for long, white fur in Alaska is advantageous where the same mutation in Ecuador would be a disadvantage. But a statement such as "Polar bears adapted to their environmental pressures by developing thick white fur for camouflage and protection from the cold" is incorrect and infers all sorts of things about the process that aren't correct.

    As Barnetmill correctly mentioned above, sometimes a trait that is an advantage today can become a disadvantage tomorrow. For example, a couple of million years ago a large meteor slammed into the Yucatan peninsula. The environmental consequences of that were devastating for large reptiles that needed mountains of food to sustain themselves but weren't nearly as bad for little, furry mammals that could hide under stuff and didn't need much food. The little mammals didn't plan for the event or adapt to the circumstances. They were just lucky to be in the right genetic form at the right time.

    The religious possibility of God fiddling with genetics (or meteors) to make things turn out to fulfill His wishes is fun to think about but isn't necessary to explain the actual process.
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  3. #13
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    As Barnetmill correctly mentioned above, sometimes a trait that is an advantage today can become a disadvantage tomorrow. For example, a couple of million years ago a large meteor slammed into the Yucatan peninsula. The environmental consequences of that were devastating for large reptiles that needed mountains of food to sustain themselves but weren't nearly as bad for little, furry mammals that could hide under stuff and didn't need much food. The little mammals didn't plan for the event or adapt to the circumstances. They were just lucky to be in the right genetic form at the right tim
    We now in the gulf and atlantic coasts have a new environmental selective factor in the form of lion fish. They were introduced somehow into our waters, perhaps 7 or so females and now have spread everywhere wiping out reef fish. In their home, the Indian Ocean there is no problem since populations are kept in check, but here their numbers are not under any control except for spear fisherman that kill them as part of a control program. Be interesting to see how this plays out.
    Their one good attribute is that they are tasty
    A lionfish (Pterois) by any other name looks just as lovely. Adorned in bold maroon, brown and white stripes, lionfish drift through the water by gently waving their fan-like fins. Floating tentacles frame their faces, making lionfish appear soft and delicate. But beware! These mysterious beauties come armed with venomous spines, and they are invading tropical waters around the world



    Last edited by barnetmill; 04-04-2019 at 03:27 PM.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  4. #14
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    I had heard they were causing trouble. Hadn’t heard you could eat them though. :0)


    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    We now in the gulf and atlantic coasts have a new environmental selective factor in the form of lion fish. They were introduced somehow into our waters, perhaps 7 or so females and now have spread everywhere wiping out reef fish. In their home, the Indian Ocean there is no problem since populations are kept in check, but here their numbers are not under any control except for spear fisherman that kill them as part of a control program. Be interesting to see how this plays out.
    Their one good attribute is that they are tasty





    Wanna Learn about Medicinal Herbs & Edible Plants?
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogDoc View Post
    I had heard they were causing trouble. Hadn’t heard you could eat them though. :0)
    Google says

    Does lionfish taste good?

    Lionfish are delicious and taste like a cross between a hog snapper and a grouper. The flesh is firm and white. Once the venomous spines have been removed, you can treat a lionfish like any other good eating fish. They are excellent fried, blackened, and sautéed.”
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

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