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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    702
    "He pointed something at me, and, as soon as I saw the laser, I realized it was a GUN he was pointing at me. I thought, "I'm really about to die tonight." I did the only thing I could, I moved out of the way and shot him with my own pistol. I didn't have time to be scared in the moment, it happened so suddenly, I could hardely believe it. But honestly, thinking about how close it was, and what could have happened, I feel a bit sick. That was almost ME lying there instead."




    Years ago, when I was just out of high school, I had someone point a visible green laser at me through my windshield from a few blocks away while I was driving. What they say is true... refracted through a windshield when you're on the inside, it is absolutely blinding. I couldn't see anything but bright, painful green. I remember that feeling well. My only thing I knew about GREEN lasers at that point was that they were the lasers that people used on fighting rifles. I actually did expect bullets to come flying through my windshield at the next moment. So what did I do? I panicked, blindly cranked the wheel to the right, and ended up stuck in a ditch. Not my finest hour, but worth a laugh looking back. After I sat there frozen for a moment, I realized I wasn't going to be shot, and then I just got pissed.
    Last edited by MesserMan; 03-11-2019 at 09:08 AM.
    - "When a resolute young fellow steps up to the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers."- Ralph Waldo Emerson

    - We are what we do. You know who someone IS by what they DO. To do is to be...not the other way around.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    217
    We were having dinner on the restaurant’s outdoor patio and I saw a red laser dot on my wife. It moved away and I could see it was moving around, pointing on several patrons. I used to own a Sig pistol with a laser aiming device and they are a very effective targeting system. We immediately moved to cover and I looked for the source. I saw a man across the street who was pointing at people on the patio in what looked to me like a classic two handed pistol stance, with his arms extended, hands together at eye level. Not like when I use a laser pointer at work. I drew my pistol and settled the sights on him. Everything seemed to be happening quickly and slowly at the same time. Fearing he was about to start shooting at us, I fired on him.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Made it to Free America
    Posts
    13,287
    Has anyone "actually" fired at someone pointing a laser at them? Im just wondering if there is any case law on the issue.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Has anyone "actually" fired at someone pointing a laser at them? Im just wondering if there is any case law on the issue.
    That's what I'm thinking. Given the totality of everything I know, lasers in CONUS are exclusively a-holes or kids goofing around - no info on actual terrorists or public/active shooters using them. No way I'd justify shooting someone just based on him pointing a laser at me. The guy in this video is posing a threat to Safety of Flight, but I can't see that as passing the flowchart.
    Armed Puritan

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Posts
    95
    I do NOT believe that there is a clear perception of a deadly threat when all you see is someone pointing a laser.

    You have a clear perception of a laser being pointed. That, in and of itself, is not a deadly threat.

    If you have a clear perception that includes other indicators that a deadly weapon is being pointed at you, that is a different story - and lethal force may be justified.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    44,604
    Quote Originally Posted by TFA303 View Post
    That's what I'm thinking. Given the totality of everything I know, lasers in CONUS are exclusively a-holes or kids goofing around - no info on actual terrorists or public/active shooters using them. No way I'd justify shooting someone just based on him pointing a laser at me. The guy in this video is posing a threat to Safety of Flight, but I can't see that as passing the flowchart.
    Really?

    You need to get out more.

    1). How many specific weapon aiming lasers are made. Do the work...I'm not going to do it for you. Here is a head start...look at Crimson Trace and Surefire...to start.

    2). How many US mil have used laser aiming modules in the WOT since 2001? Accept the fact that not all US Mil people are good people...and when they elect to do bad things will get the same gear they used when possible.

    3). How many videos on YT showing the use of a weapon mounted laser to aid in hitting the traget

    At the end of the day, you either WANT TO SHOOT or you do not...you can justify just about anything you want and the individual will is the start.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,604
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Has anyone "actually" fired at someone pointing a laser at them? Im just wondering if there is any case law on the issue.
    Really?

    You need to get out of Merryland more.

    1). How many specific weapon aiming lasers are made. Do the work...I'm not going to do it for you. Here is a head start...look at Crimson Trace and Surefire...to start.

    2). How many US mil have used laser aiming modules in the WOT since 2001? Accept the fact that not all US Mil people are good people...and when they elect to do bad things will get the same gear they used when possible.

    3). How many videos on YT showing the use of a weapon mounted laser to aid in hitting the traget

    At the end of the day, you either WANT TO SHOOT or you do not...you can justify just about anything you want and the individual will is the start.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    44,604
    Quote Originally Posted by LV_MD View Post
    I do NOT believe that there is a clear perception of a deadly threat when all you see is someone pointing a laser.

    You have a clear perception of a laser being pointed. That, in and of itself, is not a deadly threat.

    If you have a clear perception that includes other indicators that a deadly weapon is being pointed at you, that is a different story - and lethal force may be justified.
    I see alot of effort spent trying to justify NOT shooting. That's cool...we are not all programmed the same. I will say that if all your training and thinking and mental work is designed to help you NOT shoot, that is exactly what you are predisposed to do (or not do in this case).

    Your clear perception of what? Just a laser? I will bet you $1000 that I can place you in the SI parking lot in less-than-high-noon lighting, and point a laser only at your sunglasses, and then repeat with a laser attached to a Glock and you won't be able to tell the difference.

    So assuming "its just a punk kid with a chinese laser" is as foolish as assuming the military aged male with the neck beard and the back pack that just yelled "Allahu Akhbar" is just kidding.

    Me...I am shooting.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Posts
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    I see alot of effort spent trying to justify NOT shooting. That's cool...we are not all programmed the same. I will say that if all your training and thinking and mental work is designed to help you NOT shoot, that is exactly what you are predisposed to do (or not do in this case).

    Your clear perception of what? Just a laser? I will bet you $1000 that I can place you in the SI parking lot in less-than-high-noon lighting, and point a laser only at your sunglasses, and then repeat with a laser attached to a Glock and you won't be able to tell the difference.

    So assuming "its just a punk kid with a chinese laser" is as foolish as assuming the military aged male with the neck beard and the back pack that just yelled "Allahu Akhbar" is just kidding.

    Me...I am shooting.
    Great mind exercise...

    I am most certainly NOT assuming that it is just a punk with a laser - that would indeed be foolish. But I can't assume that it is a weapon either.

    I do NOT believe that I can easily discern the difference between "just" a laser, and a weapons mounted laser. That's my point. I have significant uncertainty of the situation, not the clear perception of events noted in the Flowchart.

    The bearded guy with the backpack yelling Aloha Snack-bar gets shot. In today's world he is a terrorist suicide bomber who has declared his intentions by his demeanor, actions and statements. I clearly perceive the threat to my life. Even if he was just kidding, my perception was clear and articulable. The shooting would be justified.

    Back to the laser.. if he is in a shooting stance, threatening demeanor, yelling at me, and I see a laser - then YES, clear perception of a deadly threat and he gets shot.

    The laser, by itself, with no other indicators of a threat, does not register TO ME as meeting the clear perception of a deadly threat.

    I don't for a minute second guess you if you perceive it as a deadly threat.

    I am NOT making the argument that he is NOT a threat. He may be a threat, he may not. I am only stating that I cannot clearly perceive whether or not he is a threat.

    That's what makes this discussion so interesting, and important!
    Last edited by LV_MD; 03-13-2019 at 10:55 AM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    44,604
    Mine

    Quote Originally Posted by LV_MD View Post
    Great mind exercise...

    I am most certainly NOT assuming that it is just a punk with a laser - that would indeed be foolish. But I can't assume that it is a weapon either.

    What is your first impression...tick tock.

    You either take things at face value and respond, or you wait. If a man points a weapon or exhibits it in a manner indicative of an attempt to intimidate, what will you assume? Is it a toy, is this a joke? If a man that looks like a terrorist reaches in his back pack and yells out a phrase indicative of a coming slaughter, what will you assume? It is a joke? Is this one of those youtube things? I think you can arrive at conclusions based on what is presented to you at the moment. In 2019, would a reasonable person point "just a laser"? Or yell out Allahu Akhbar as a joke? And how should a reasonable person react to such things? With indecision or with action? You are not assuming, rather you are arriving at hasty conclusions under duress, as would be done by a reasonable person in this day and age. And doing it here, makes it easier to do out there...the mental kata as it were.


    I do NOT believe that I can easily discern the difference between "just" a laser, and a weapons mounted laser. That's my point. I have significant uncertainty of the situation, not the clear perception of events noted in the Flowchart.

    So you assume it is not a weapon? That is a mistake. Lack of complete clarity does not invalidate the above. In truth you will not have complete clarity until after the fact. And moreover...the certainty of the situation relates to you getting involved in an attack on someone else...coming to their aid. When you are the focus of the attack...or perceived attack, you are justified to go with your first impressions. Waiting for more is a deadly error.

    The bearded guy with the backpack yelling Aloha Snack-bar gets shot. In today's world he is a terrorist suicide bomber who has declared his intentions by his demeanor, actions and statements. I clearly perceive the threat to my life. Even if he was just kidding, my perception was clear and articulable. The shooting would be justified.

    OK...so taking that mental process...you are arriving at the shoot decision based on your training and experience and awareness of the events of our modern day. I say the laser issue is the same. Maybe stretching it, but it is the same. Remember, you can be mistaken and still be legally justified. Why would a reasonable person in 2019, an era where laser aiming devices are commonly available and commonly used in popular culture in the movies and my US military, elect to point one at another person, knowing full well that they would think there would be a subsequent shot fired at them? All depends on where you want to end the event

    Back to the laser.. if he is in a shooting stance, threatening demeanor, yelling at me, and I see a laser - then YES, clear perception of a deadly threat and he gets shot.
    The laser, by itself, with no other indicators of a threat, does not register TO ME as meeting the clear perception of a deadly threat.

    So I have a FOF class coming up next month. We will do an exercise where participants have a laser pointed at them...aimed at their mouth (not eyes). The laser will be free and alone, or attached to a UTM pistol. We will see these points -

    1). Can they tell the difference IN TIME to decide whether they should shoot or not?
    2). How long it takes the laser man to fire that shot subsequent to the painting with the laser.

    I am willing to bet nobody can tell the difference in time. Time frame will be the interval between the painting and the shot. ...as we say in class.



    I would film it and publish it, but I am not giving away any info anymore...maybe a paid for download.


    I am NOT making the argument that he is NOT a threat. He may be a threat, he may not. I am only stating that I cannot clearly perceive whether or not he is a threat.

    That's what makes this discussion so interesting, and important!
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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