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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    126
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasher View Post
    I guess I don’t understand all the handwringing regarding being extra legal in shooting a bear.

    If it beeded to be shot (see the flowchart) then it needed to be shot and just deal with the outcome.

    if you are more worries about what your pussified neighbors and their shrill shrew wives think well I can’t help you there.

    Personally i have almost no worries regarding black bears. They aren’t that big and they don’t take all that much killing.

    I am am starting to spend time up in Wyoming with a friend who does some guiding and he is teaching me to ride (and later to pack) and my choices are a Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt with very heavy stout cast billet lods and my Tac 14 with 1-1/4 oz full dram slugs.

    Wyoming has grizzlies and those worry me more than black bears ever will
    Use whatever you can get into play faster. Bear attacks tend to happen about as fast as AOC's cake hole and almost as dangerous. A 45 colt bisley with 250-335 grain hard cast is plenty effective. I used that here in Alaska for years until I found the G-20. I only went to it because the subsequent shots are faster than any single action revolver and about any double action not in Jerry Miculek's hands. What will help more than your weapons is paying attention and not doing stupid shit. Bears are really curious and like to sniff, taste, rip, tear, and stomp stuff to find out if it's edible or not. We were fishing the Kenai a few years back for sockeye season and there were hundreds of folks lining the banks. Typical Alaskan combat fishing with guys 6 feet to either side of you. Heard someone upstream holler "BEAR" but it took a few minutes to ever see it. Young brown bear ambling downstream eating fish pieces and carcases or heads, whatever. As he came everyone close enough stopped fishing to get up the banks and give him some room. Left everything laying as is..camp chairs, lunch coolers, jackets, tackle boxes, etc. So Yogi sees the cool people stuff laying on the tiny island where the confluence is with the Russian River is and slings everything all over as he's sniffing and snorting around ..then he gets atop a folded camp chair and jumps up and down on his front paws ...all 400 lbs of him. Then after tiring of this he jumped into the river to swim over to the center island ...where 2 big whitewater inflatable fishing boats full of people were by then playing Keystone Cops trying to get into the boats and shove off. They made it away with literally a couple feet to spare before the bear used their boat to crawl out of the river. Pretty soon he found a stringer of salmon and headed into the brush of the island to enjoy lunch. This whole time my Springer spaniel just stood by and watched and didn't let off one single bark. One of my more enjoyable fishing trips to date. Other times down there same river, same season folks have had to shoot a bear to protect themselves. Alaska's fish and game officers do pretty thorough investigations into these shootings called "DLP" defense of life or property. I don't want to have to shoot a bear under DLP but I'll certainly hunt them. Hunted bears are VERY different animals than bears near fishing areas, farms, towns, garbage dumps and so forth. As you see in some of these videos they'll let you nearly pet them..hunted nears are not cool with seeing, smelling or hearing a human noise. They generally take 2 steps into the brush and are gone. Unless they are on a kill or have cubs...then it's a gamble what they'll do. Black bears can be killed with about any deer rifle or defensive gun but brown bears can be very tough. I've seen a few soak up 340 weatherby and 375 H&H and still vacate the area and then still trying to come for us even though thoroughly busted up and nearly dead.
    Then you hear about folks nailing them wit 9mm or 357's or 45 ACP. I prefer to err on the heavy side of this old argument.

    Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,285
    "DLP" defense of life or property.
    It would be good if the Florida authorities admitted that there is such a thing DLP when communicating with the public. They admit to self defense but not defense of property which is important since bears are destructive. I am sure that a lawyer could use it as a successful defense if someone gets charged with killing one. A few years ago not far from me a local decided he had had enough from the local neighborhood bear and her cub that routinely in broad daylight would patrol his neighborhood and with a shotgun he killed them. In the news papers he was threatened with charges, but I never heard of the case actually being taken to court. He said the bears presented a threat to his dog. He used a shotgun, no information on the loads used.
    Bears locally wiped out more than one backyard beekeeper and people are more afraid of the wildlife law enforcement officer than they are of the bears. A black bear in your backyard is not so difficult to kill. Usually black bears are less than 300 lbs, so a tight pattern of high velocity triple ought buckshot should do the trick from a 12 ga 5 shot mag pump action gun.

    The FWC only says self defense, but not defense of property. Below is their public statement on the issue. https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/w...r/living/faqs/
    Is it ever legal to kill a bear in Florida? Bears are protected by the Bear Conservation Rule , which states it is illegal "take, possess, injure, shoot, collect, or sell black bears or their parts or to attempt to engage in such conduct except as authorized by Commission rule or by permit from the Commission." The only applicable defense to illegally take or attempt take of a bear is the Common Law Defense of Necessity. The defense is limited to the following circumstances:

    1. the defendant reasonably believed that his or her action was necessary to avoid an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to himself or herself or others;
    2. the defendant did not intentionally or recklessly place himself or herself in a situation in which it would be probable that he or she would be forced to choose the criminal conduct;
    3. there existed no other adequate means to avoid the threatened harm except the criminal conduct;
    4. the harm sought to be avoided was more egregious than the criminal conduct perpetrated to avoid it; and
    5. the defendant ceased the criminal conduct as soon as the necessity or apparent necessity for it ended.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  3. #33
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,285
    Court case of man that killed two florida bears
    bear court case.jpg

    https://www.nwfdailynews.com/1.294889
    After it was determined that all black bears in Florida qualify as Florida black bears, Okaloosa County Judge T. Patterson Maney ruled Friday that Ralph Ward indeed had illegally killed two of them.


    FORT WALTON BEACH -- After it was determined that all black bears in Florida qualify as Florida black bears, Okaloosa County Judge T. Patterson Maney ruled Friday that Ralph Ward indeed had illegally killed two of them.
    He ordered Ward to pay $750 in fees and fines and to take a firearms safety class. However, Maney did not adjudicate Ward guilty of the two misdemeanor charges he faced.
    While Maney complimented both attorneys on the battle they waged during a two-day judge’s trial, prosecutor Ginger Madden’s argument won the day.
    “The physical evidence in this case is absolutely contrary to the testimony of Mr. Ward that he was charged by three bears,” Madden argued in closing.

    In presenting her case Thursday, Madden had paraded Okaloosa County sheriff’s deputies and Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission investigators to the witness stand.
    Their testimony backed up her contention that Ward had stalked and shot a mother bear and her cub when they showed up with a second cub on his property in Wright.
    Ward testified that he shot at the bears as they charged him, three abreast, and that law officers killed them after arriving at the scene.
    The fate of the case hung briefly Friday morning on Madden’s ability to produce a witness who could definitively say that the dead bears were Florida black bears.
    She had to re-open her case to do so, something defense attorney Glenn Swiatek strenuously objected to.

    Swiatek argued that his client should be acquitted because Madden had never verified through testimony what kind of bears had been killed. State law only bans the killing of threatened Florida black bears.

    FWC technician Kevin McDonald came on after Madden reopened her case. He testified that his agency had taken DNA samples from thousands of bears in Florida, including 195 samples from the state-recognized population on Eglin Air Force Base land.

    No sample ever had turned up anything that wasn’t a Florida black bear, McDonald said.

    Although the Florida black bear is recognized as a distinct subspecies of the American black bear, McDonald testified that “if it’s a black bear in Florida, I consider it a Florida black bear.”

    And that was that.

    Despite the relatively light punishment, Swiatek said Ward, a veteran of Korea and Vietnam, was seriously considering an appeal.



    “Ralph is an 83-year-old retired master sergeant, a veteran of two wars and six tours in Vietnam,” Swiatek said. “He wants to go out with a clean record. This is a blemish on his record.”
    the killing of threatened Florida black bears FWC technician Kevin McDonald came on after Madden reopened her case. He testified that his agency had taken DNA samples from thousands of bears in Florida, including 195 samples from the state-recognized population on Eglin Air Force Base land.
    No sample ever had turned up anything that wasn’t a Florida black bear, McDonald said.
    Although the Florida black bear is recognized as a distinct subspecies of the American black bear, McDonald testified that “if it’s a black bear in Florida, I consider it a Florida black bear.”
    And that was that.
    Despite the relatively light punishment, Swiatek said Ward, a veteran of Korea and Vietnam, was seriously considering an appeal.

    “Ralph is an 83-year-old retired master sergeant, a veteran of two wars and six tours in Vietnam,” Swiatek said. “He wants to go out with a clean record. This is a blemish on his record.”

    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,798
    Good lord..... FLOW CHART, I've even typed it slow for those that don't read fast. We've already laid to rest the discussion on shooting a person and now we're debating the legality of shooting an animal that is a clear and present danger to your and/or your loved ones?

    Come on guys are we really doing this after all the writing we've done on justified shooting?
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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