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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,198
    Always been amazed at people that want to carry a gun but don't believe they can use it. What do they think the gun is for? Show it to the bad guy and he'll back off and leave? Maybe they need to watch some of those video's of guys with knives walking towards an officer's pointed gun while being told, repeatedly to back off/drop the knife. "Showing them the gun" didn't stop them. Shooting them several times does.

    Always been amazed at people who do use one to survive and then feel bad about surviving. How could you look at someone you just had to shoot, lying on the ground bleeding and not be glad that it's not you lying there bleeding out?

    I remember carrying my 12 ga. during building searches and hearing someone else whisper, "Hey, you know the Chief doesn't like us carrying long guns." Didn't mean a thing to me, the Chief wasn't creeping through a dark building looking for somebody that might be armed or intending harm.

    Or pulling up to a dark van in a parking lot at night with my M29 pointed at the driver's door (out of sight under the top of my door) and asking people inside what they were doing. Freaked the other officers out if someone else was with me at the time.

    Never went to a "K" party but I'm thinking it was as much a celebration of still being alive as well as having gotten a bad guy off the street.

    I don't know if hunting, killing, skinning/gutting and eating game animals helped form my opinions/personality. I don't know if being in the US Army Infantry helped for my opinions/personality. I don't know if it was my upbringing by hard working parents who put family above everything else that helped form my opinions/personality. Probably all three to some extent.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    151
    Most of this is regurgitated, single source information from SLAM via Grossman. While not everyone is a 'born killer', to say that fear of killing another human being is universal is nonsense. If you haven't yet, read 'War Before Civilization:The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Keeley. He shows that the idea that we are peaceful kumbayah kind of creatures at heart is simply not true. Historically, we as a species have had no issues killing our own kind, as long as they weren't members of our social group, family, tribe, etc. The injunctions against murder have been to discourage killing one of our own group because that would weaken the group and diminish our chances for survival. In our enlightened age, most of the reluctance we see comes more from an indoctrinated fear of getting in trouble, whatever that might mean, than something in our DNA.

    Sources from Musashi in the Go Rin No Sho to feudal societies in Europe have broken society down by jobs: Merchants, Artistans, Craftsmen etc. Warriors are always on the list, regardless of the society. There have always been those who either were willing or eager to kill for the tribe. If there was a universal fear of killing, warriors either wouldn't on the list or would be at the bottom with the untouchables.



    Jim Miller
    ISA 6:8

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    436
    I laughed at the soldier knowing who to kill because the enemy is in uniform. Has the author been under a rock since 2001? I can’t speak for before then but I am sure there were plenty of non-uniformed enemy for every generation. Universal fear my butt. So much just incorrect that it’s amazing stuff like this makes it to print.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,149
    I think there is reluctance to kill, but it's not universal, which is where the article went wrong.

    Who among us, if in a situation requiring us to kill a family member or close friend wouldn't hesitate?

    Hesitation comes from tribal proximity. The more you associate the threat as a member of your tribe, the greater the reluctance.

    When the threat is far disassociated from you, and is clearly not a member of your tribe, there is no problem.

    But there is grey area between the two, and when the waters are muddied it may be necessary to be able to quickly file the threat in the 'NOT MY TRIBE' category and act accordingly.

    The article seemed to attempt to extrapolate that to a general assumption about hesitation to kill, which is obviously foolish.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,518
    I agree that the article is more or less a one page summary of chapter one of Grossman's "On killing" which is ok because most people today are too stupid to read a whole book. Everyone should read that book, but most won't. Now, having said that, I'll go a step further and point out that even an excellent well researched book is no more than the author's perspective. "On Killing" is great work, but it's not settled psychological science. Take it for what it's worth.

    People are complicated and not all alike. I'm sure the assertions made are on the money in enough cases to be worth reading, but this is not the Rosetta Stone of understanding human behavior.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,158
    Regarding the nature vs nurture issue, tribal cultures who have had limited contact with the outside world show little to no hesitation to kill. This debate has never been held on North Sentinel Island. Their only hesitation is fear of losing the fight. That settles the human nature issue for me. Self-restraint in any area of life runs counter to human nature and has to be learned.

    To "kill and not have a problem with it" is only possible inside a well-considered moral framework that permits you to conclude the killing was necessary and right given the circumstances. The people who have lost sight of that moral framework are the reason we carry guns. People who carry without thinking through the morality of it are fools.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    98
    To add to Gabe's analogy of boy killing bugs, my experience in the BSA is that boys are naturally a bit sadistic and enjoy the killing. I've had to teach boys that throwing live frogs into the fire is wrong, but killing and eating frogs on a wilderness survival trip is glorious and delicious. BTW, left scouting two decades ago after 35 years because it became to pussified and filled with rules.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    120
    Interesting article but definitely disagree with the "universal".

    Never been a soldier or police but have had my share of violence and sent others to the ER.

    I think the critical factor for being able to use violence is determination:

    -Determination to stop the bad guy.
    -Determination to protect the innocent.
    -Determination to win.
    -Determination to live.

    We know what's important and what we have to do to achieve it. That's determination.

    In my experience, those who can't use violence tend to have less determination in life overall. Average jobs, health, etc. In contrast, I'd say most of us here are high-achievers not content with average. That determination allows us to act, to do what's necessary to achieve our goals, whether it's working out or killing.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    THIRD COAST
    Posts
    4,482
    Modern men don't seem to be required to think or reason. It's fashionable to be a "dumb blonde". Going with the flow to "belong" has made men weak. I'd rather lead a group of four than belong to a group of 400. What you think of yourself and what your peers think of you can be a huge driving factor. That's why I think it's critically important to choose your peers wisely. You must be in command of yourself and not be so willing to give in to emotions that can give you a brief reward while costing more than you'd be willing to pay.
    Jon Payne
    Ambassador, Suarez Group of Companies
    Suarez International Law Enforcement Instructor

    The Two Most Dangerous Places in Today's World:
    1.) A Gun Free Zone
    2.) Your Comfort Zone

    Train with Payne 2019

    AK RIFLE GUNFIGHTING - OCT 26-27, 2019 HOUSTON, TX

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,627
    Old Warrior Chieftain says: "We are not killers because we have killed, rather, the reverse, we kill because first we are Killers."
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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