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  1. #1
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    Default HERE IS ONE WE NEED TO DISCUSS - THE FEAR OF KILLING

    READ THE ARTICLE LINKED FIRST, THEN COMMENT HERE AT WT.

    HERE IS HOW I WANT ARTICLES LINKED HANDLED HENCEFORTH. TITLE WITH LINK, AND A SMALL SNIPPET SO WE KNOW WTF WE WILL BE READING. HERE WE GO.

    The Universal Phobia: Being Afraid To Kill

    "Intense psychological conditioning might overcome this aversion to killing, similar to that which the military has adopted, but at what cost to the officer? Additionally, the battlefield is not the city streets. In war, the enemy is (usually) in a uniform and shooting at you. The police officer cannot readily identify the enemy from other people. In addition, there are many “rules” that govern official shootings that the officer must follow before pulling the trigger. Essentially, the officer must be facing a lethal attack before shooting. He must be reacting to a perceived threat, which, of course, places him in an unenviable position. He will always be seconds behind the threat."

    SO MY BARBAROUS AND BELLICOSE BRETHREN...OTHER THAN THE OBVIOUS...WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
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    It’s a good read on killing and murder. It appears there are fewer meat eaters in the heat of battle than expected.

    The last paragraph reveals the writer’s conceit— many of us are better trained than the average policeman who trains rarely and qualifies yearly. Killing the bad guy is the purpose of carrying a firearm. The defense minded crowd will be reacting out of fear and will be at a disadvantage.

    If there is a threat and action is justified (or preclusion is immoral or impossible), then the worries of the defense minded crowd are irrational.

    Turning gunmen into killers and meat eaters- this is a worthy goal.




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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Western WA
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    Tagged for reading later. But the title makes me twitch. “Universal”? Really?

    That’s a big word to throw around...and it only takes one to invalidate it.

    Sorta like “violence never solved anything.”
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

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    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,646
    I'll chime in later this evening when I have some time to expound on my thoughts and experience on this topic.
    Cheers
    T.

    "VICTORIOUS WARRIORS WIN FIRST...
    AND THEN GO TO WAR,
    WHILE DEFEATED WARRIORS GO TO WAR FIRST...
    AND THEN SEEK TO WIN." Sun tzu


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    1,646
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post

    "Intense psychological conditioning might overcome this aversion to killing, similar to that which the military has adopted, but at what cost to the officer? Additionally, the battlefield is not the city streets. In war, the enemy is (usually) in a uniform and shooting at you. The police officer cannot readily identify the enemy from other people. In addition, there are many “rules” that govern official shootings that the officer must follow before pulling the trigger. Essentially, the officer must be facing a lethal attack before shooting. He must be reacting to a perceived threat, which, of course, places him in an unenviable position. He will always be seconds behind the threat."
    .
    Well straight away this assumption is absolute bull shit on the modern battlefield, I have killed far more enemies who were not in a uniform than who were; most looked just like everyone else in the area. We identified them by their "actions"....
    Cheers
    T.

    "VICTORIOUS WARRIORS WIN FIRST...
    AND THEN GO TO WAR,
    WHILE DEFEATED WARRIORS GO TO WAR FIRST...
    AND THEN SEEK TO WIN." Sun tzu


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    1,149
    - For most people killing is not natural
    - killing can become more natural for those not naturally inclined through conditioning, but the act appears to still have psychological effects on such individuals.
    - killing is easier when the enemy is disassociated and easily identifiable (soldiers in uniforms for example, or perhaps genocide when killing by race)
    - initiative deficit sucks so if you can find a way to move first you should.

    The main takeaway for me is that civilian and LE interact with people that aren't clearly the enemy, but also may turn out to be. I think it is vitally important to be able to flip the switch on a contact really quickly and mentally identify the person as "enemy" as clearly as if you were a GI staring at a Nazi in WWII. That is a a prerequisite for identifying a threat and a precursor to fighting.

    That might help you in a reactive fight to be more decisive or aggressive but doesn't solve initiative deficit. However being able to flip the switch could allow you to act more preemptively and, combined with the ability to articulate and the flowchart, it might extend the length of the "imminent" part of "imminent unlawful deadly force".

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUA SPONTE View Post
    identified them by their "actions"....
    On this side of the pond as well brother.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    134
    The link between mental conditioning and PTSD after Vietnam as suggested in the article is pretty weak. There were a lot of other factors that made Vietnam different than WWII and Korea; too many to draw a direct causation. Those cases may also have been caused by things other than that person actually killing another.

    The link between mental conditioning and combat performance does imply that some sort of mental preparation is beneficial and necessary. Other articles written here recently have supported that conclusion with empirical data from various fields. This leads to the conclusion that some sort of mental conditioning prior to being in a fight will help make you victorious. I'm not sure what the literature says, but it may actually help avoid PTSD issues entirely (not that it matters in the moment).

    The question then becomes: what does my mental conditioning look like in order for me to be combat effective across the wide spectrum of situations I might encounter? I imagine that the sum of those recent (and brilliant) articles that Gabe has been penning pretty well say it. Something along the lines of: mindset development ('what if' scenarios, predator self-image, articulation exercises) and technical competence (FoF, dry fire/katas, live fire, articulation exercises, strength and conditioning).

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Great article bringing many things to mind to consider.

    1. The comment that the sixth Commandment correctly uses the word "murder" requires emphasis. People are conditioned by belief as much as experience and knowledge. That means that failing to take an action is a result of a belief that the action is wrong. This means that the impression, interpretation, or value (good/bad) judgment associated with a given action - killing in this case - needs to be changed. This brings us to psychology - mental conditioning, emotional conditioning, and belief structure modification. The message here is that the mind needs to be trained.

    2. That only humans and apes kill their owns species is BS. We know that when male lions take over a pride he will kill and eat the young of his predecessor. The articles mention that man kills man because he makes weapons is a distraction not worth even considering. Man makes weapons because he can. Man makes weapons as tools - primordially for hunting and defence from larger animals - and then for protection from harm from others.

    3. War versus the street - NOT that different. Uniforms on the battlefield are a modern construct that resulted from a need to be able to identify and command bodies of troops tactically. Even as late as the fifth Century BC uniform dress was unusual. The Romans had uniforms, but the Celts, Saxons and Gauls they fought did not. Again, a distraction.

    4. What do I believe is what is needed? First, the individual - soldier, LEO, private citizen, has to have a clear understanding that he/she has a right, duty, and moral obligation to defend his/her life and the lives of others for whom they are responsible. Second, they have to have the mental conviction that any death that results is solely a consequence of the perpetrator/s' (enemy's) actions. Finally, there is NO substitution for the mental and physical conditioning that is only available from repeated and continuous force on force training.

    That is my opinion.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
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    3,100
    Reflections:

    1. "Widespread" maybe, "universal" never.
    2. "SLAM's" numbers have been disputed (and the writer doesn't understand those numbers--he has the proportions inverted). The numbers are suspect because of self-reporting in a group setting: see #3, below.
    3. It is rare for an individual to admit that he enjoys fighting, rarer that he enjoys violence, rarer still that he enjoys killing. Societal or peer pressure drives the lies.
    4. And it drives reluctance to discuss certain events. Try something mild, like saying you lost count of how many people you've held at gunpoint after the first 50, and watch the reaction.
    5. In my skewed world view, we are what Michael Shaara called "killer angels." Are we really unwilling to kill, or are we in a constant battle to keep from doing so?

    P.S.: PD is right, and not just lions but wolves and others kill their own kind.
    Last edited by Papa; 02-15-2019 at 03:12 PM.
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