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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    301
    JonathanNobody wrote:

    What will you do when there’s a distinct and irreconcilable polarization between what Gabe teaches and the shoot-insurance attorney recommends? Who will you trust?
    What Gabe is teaching, hands down. No contest there. But that's not what I'm talking about. In a shooting, I'm calling the police, then the USCCA for the attorney, then giving my micro-statement the way Gabe is teaching it. I prefer to have the skills to make sure I'm seen accurately - as the victim - that there is no need for the lawyer. HOWEVER...Illinois is not exactly a gun friendly state (yes, I know, move...but for some of us it's not something we can do at the drop of a hat so in the meantime...). What happens when I give an accurate, well articulated micro-statement but the thug on the ground achieving ambient air temperature has friends who fled the scene and call it in as a racial incident or whatever? I can easily, very easily, see it turning into a "lets sort this out at the station" situation that drags out longer than I want it to. At least if worse comes to worse, I have an attorney paid for and bail (if needed) paid for and I go home that night to work things out. I can go to work tomorrow and not lose money.

    Again, my point is that my primary insurance is what Gabe is teaching. I much prefer having my own ability to assure I go home tonight as the victim and move on with my life over putting my fate in letting my attorney speak for me. BUT...it's a good thing to have that insurance so in case it becomes more complicated through no fault of my own.
    "Let him cut your skin, and you cut his flesh. Let him cut your flesh, and you cut his bones. Let him cut your bones, and you cut off his life."
    - Toshitsugo Takamatsu

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,627
    J...I am quickly getting to the point in my career where my "give-a-shit" tank is empty more often than not. I think if someone called me and told me of their trouble, and it came about from NOT listening to us, I might just tell them to piss off that they should have known.

    If we added up how many times you and I have shot for blood, been sued, and investigated and worse, the tender sensibilities here would pale in horror.

    Yet I am beginning to get offended everytime an unblooded neophyte says, "Yes but..." as if they know a god damn thing of what we have done or seen because some painted dog turd on YT told him to buy something or wear something or say a magic word. Maybe I have been at this too long.

    Maybe I need to put a disclaimer on ever article and every class...."If you think we are wrong, don't waste our motherfucking time".

    Maybe that is what I need to do.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    301
    Gabe, I think I'm seeing some serious over-reacting here, no offense intended. Look, I CLEARLY posted this (in response to Jonathan asking me who I trust more - you or the insurance lawyers):

    What Gabe is teaching, hands down. No contest there.
    I'm trusting you over the lawyers. That's why my micro-statement happens on the scene, as you teach it, before the lawyer even gets his shoes on to answer the call. You're right, period, end of story. I'm not in any way saying I don't believe or trust you. What I'm saying is (and I'm sure you'll agree) that there is no 100% perfect guarantee that, even if I take the class, things don't go wrong. For example, what if the bad guy I shot is related to the cop who arrives on the scene? I know a lot of cops in the area who have kids who are some of the worst thugs out there, in gangs, etc. Or in my previous example, several thugs flee the area and call it in as a racial incident (consider all the hate crime hoaxes, and this isn't at all an unreasonable concern)? Or hell, what if I just fuck up because I'm so stressed out from the shooting that I say something wrong? Maybe in the heat of the moment I let a racial slur slip out in earshot of a witness or the police? These are all within the realm of possibilities. Very unlikely, but shit happens in life and always at the worst time.

    So all I'm saying is that I feel better knowing I have an attorney and bail money on call. I put all my faith into what you're teaching. That's what I'm counting on to save my ass and keep me free. If I didn't feel that way, why would I spend the money to attend a class? But knowing how crazy things can get, why not have the lawyer and bail on retainer just in case something crazy and unforseen happens? Put more simply, if I use what is taught in the class and it doesn't keep me out of jail that night, then we've just entered that 0.00001% Twilight Zone where reality is all fucked up and things happen that shouldn't be able to happen. So...Suarez class keeps me out of jail = 99.99999% chance. God overrules us all and the 0.000001% chance of things going wrong happens, well...there's the lawyer and bail money. It's unlikely to almost the point of absurdity to think that what I learn in the class won't keep me out and free as the victim. But I have seen supposedly impossible things happen, so that insurance is there just in case. I'm not sure I can explain it more clearly than that. I'll be following your advice long before a lawyer gets involved, if he ever even gets involved in the first place. I'm there giving my micro-statement, etc, etc. I feel totally confident in that class. But again, there is no guarantee in life, so even if that insurance just affords and extra layer of peace of mind, it's worth it to me.
    "Let him cut your skin, and you cut his flesh. Let him cut your flesh, and you cut his bones. Let him cut your bones, and you cut off his life."
    - Toshitsugo Takamatsu

  4. #14
    Ghost,

    There's going to be a transition from Investigative Detention to Post-Miranda Detention to Custodial Detention at some point (if you didn't do your job right). Don't interpret Post-Miranda Detention as being in-custody; however, generally speaking all they're going to ask you initially is "What happened?" in Investigative Detention and try and get details in Post-Miranda Detention. Think of it this way: The "What happened?" question is open ended and even if you're technically not free to leave they aren't asking you a question about a crime. Once you divulge in the "What happened?" phase you shot the suspect now they're investigating a murder case. Since you still aren't technically free to leave, and they're asking you a question about a crime they will need to Mirandize you. Post-Miranda will be the phase where they want the details....all of which can incriminate you in a murder.

    You'll get into this in class, but if you're going to use the lawyer card may I recommend you put that down at that transition point between Investigative Detention and Post-Miranda Detention. I'd also throw the attorney under the bus and explain to the officer or detective that while you attorney wants you to just be quiet, since you're the victim you'd like to reach a compromise. This compromise will be your microstatement, and at the end of which you'll ask for your attorney. If you set that expectation in the detective's mind you'll have a better chance of meeting a middle ground. There is a detriment to you for saying too much and for saying too little. The microstatement is the middle ground, but you'll need to finesse in the attorney card.

    You're also going to have to figure out what phase you're in and it will be tough unless you've had the class. A good detective won't need to use Miranda until deep into the interview, if at all. It is all in the questions and your ability or inability to control yourself. There are ways to find out what phase you're in and those you'll get in the class from Gabe.

    Your attorney won't be there when you shoot the suspect and I've actually never seen one drive to the scene. I was case agent for one incident and when I arrived the "victim" simply looked at me, pulled out his attorney's card, and turned it over where the pre-printed statement was advising me the client would not submit to any questions and to contact the attorney. As I had a dead guy in his house and no story I booked him - I never called the attorney and didn't need to. It was sorted out later but in the reports he name never came out of the "suspect" slot.

    Enjoy the class. Work on the finessing and learn what all the players need and why.

    And now ends my free advice and caring.

    J
    Last edited by JonathanNobody; 02-22-2019 at 10:52 PM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    301
    Thanks Jonathan, and you read my mind! I was about to ask about the transition phase you mentioned, though I thought Gabe might want me to save those questions for the class (not sure how much we can discuss without attending the class, because Gabe shouldn't be giving the info out for free obviously). I'm assuming that if we follow the information we learn in class, there really is no need for the lawyer. Am I understanding that correctly? In other words, I make the micro-statement, I'm treated as the victim, and eventually that night I'm free to go home? Or do lawyers usually end up being involved anyway? My thought process was that if we do everything correctly as taught in class, the issue is resolved, I'm a crime victim, free to go, no charges, no lawyers need to be called. Only if some crazy unforeseeable issue factors itself in would the attorney be needed, as in the examples I gave. Is that about right?

    On a side note, is the August class the only one taking place in 2019? I've been talking to some of my friends and some of the other guards at work, and we were also wondering if this is a class that will only be taught in AZ, or is it possible to get a big enough group to sponsor Gabe or any other SI instructor to travel midwest to give the class? After all the info we've covered on the forums over the past year or so, I have to say I think this is the most important class anyone who carries a gun could possibly take. So even though I haven't even attended it yet myself, I'm encouraging everyone I know to look into coming.
    "Let him cut your skin, and you cut his flesh. Let him cut your flesh, and you cut his bones. Let him cut your bones, and you cut off his life."
    - Toshitsugo Takamatsu

  6. #16
    Will you use an attorney or not? The answer is yes, no, maybe and it depends. It isn't really a question of if you'll use the attorney but when you use the attorney. That insurance won't be of any help to you on-scene and that's the environment for which the class will prepare you, and the interview to follow.

    I'd quit worrying about the attorney and worry about getting a detective to bob his head in agreement with you. You want the head bob and you want him to buy you a drink and drive you home thinking "Fuck yeah!" in his head.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    301
    Thanks Jonathan! This...

    I'd quit worrying about the attorney and worry about getting a detective to bob his head in agreement with you. You want the head bob and you want him to buy you a drink and drive you home thinking "Fuck yeah!" in his head.
    ...totally sums it up for me. That's exactly why I want to take this class.That's also why I consider this class my primary insurance. The concealed carry insurance? Like a spare magazine. Nice to have just in case, but you damned well better know how to shoot that gun and have a high-capacity magazine loaded and ready to go. To touch on something Gabe said, if I had to pick just one - this class or a lifetime of insurance - this class wins, hands down, without even a thought.
    "Let him cut your skin, and you cut his flesh. Let him cut your flesh, and you cut his bones. Let him cut your bones, and you cut off his life."
    - Toshitsugo Takamatsu

  8. #18
    Ghost,

    For you: http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...us-Sympathetic

    Take Gabe's class.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    301
    Thanks again. Making it one of my highest priorities this year!
    "Let him cut your skin, and you cut his flesh. Let him cut your flesh, and you cut his bones. Let him cut your bones, and you cut off his life."
    - Toshitsugo Takamatsu

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,627
    Lawyers love suspects. Suspects make them alot of money. Victims not so much. If you are Bill Gates Rich, who cares. buy each of your legal team a new boat. Even if they list you as a suspect in a multiple homicide with a $5 million bail, you will still sleep in your own bed, and your attorneys will have to be driven to the station as they will be unable to drive with their cash hard ons. For real people, nobody is going to wait for him to arrive to save you. The investigation will continue with the silent guy listed as suspect. But hey...maybe you guys do have more cash than an Arab and maybe I am wasting my time even discussing this.

    If you don't have that level of cash, and have a brain inside the skull, it is better to be listed as a victim...something that doesn't seem to be getting through I am getting tired of saying. The only thing that will get you Victim Placement is you and your words...not your lawyer.

    And unless you are the "open carry in a serpa at walmart" type, I doubt your shootings will be of the questionable variety. Some of you guys seem to keep identifying with the Dewey crow types that get into shootings in alleys over trash cans with other Dewey Crow types. Read Gentleman Warrior if you haven't. I don't want Dewey Crow or Boyd Crowder in my classes.

    The more clear cut/slam dunk, the less an attorney will ever be needed.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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