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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Exiled in Texas
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    7,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    I'll want time to make domestic arrangements, load up again, reach out to a lawyer on the short list, and get some nourishment.
    Some people will consider it petty and unimportant, but I dislike the idea of getting scooped up, stuffed in a concrete "room" (not a cell), and being interrogated. For any who are unfamiliar with the physical environment or the psychology behind it, here is what you are in for after you saved the world:

    You are spread out on the ground, stepped on, and forcibly disarmed. You are handcuffed. Three or more cops mirandize you over the next hour. You get stuffed in the back of a very uncomfortable car and driven to the police station. They place you in a "room" with a table that is selected based upon its inability to be picked up and thrown. It may just be a steel table that is bolted to the floor. There are a few plastic chairs, chosen because they would make ineffective weapons and because of their discomfort. There is no bathroom or sink. If you want to go to the bathroom, you have to ask. That is an intentional psychological game designed to make you feel submissive. They don't lock the door, because they want to be able to later say in court, "The door wasn't locked. He could leave at any time." But you can't leave. There is a giant old detective at the door, who looks very much like an ogre. If you want water, you have to ask for that, and they will bring you a little 3 oz. cup from the water fountain. They will likely leave you in there to stew for a while.

    Contrast that situation with this:

    My lawyer calls the district attorney, who in turn calls the detective handling the attack. He explains, "I represent the guy who killed all of those terrorists for you, and saved an untold number of innocent lives. I'm betting that you would like to talk to him. And he's willing to talk, but only if you agree to certain terms. First, you leave him alone until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow, when we meet at my office. If you try to contact him before then, he'll clam up. Second, you do not Mirandize him. You agree--in writing--that he is in custody and you are interrogating him. You agree in writing that nothing he says in this interview can be used against him in court. Third, you agree to not release his name to the public unless and until he chooses to do so himself. Fourth, you consent to us audio and video recording the entire interview and retaining our own record. Fifth, you get two seats at the table; anyone else has to wait outside."

    That's a ballsy play, but my bet is that they'd agree. And if they don't then you stay quiet. If they do agree, then you sit in a comfortable room, after a good night's sleep and a big breakfast, sipping fresh coffee while you recount the deeds of your heroism. You can speak as freely and as colorfully as you wish, not having to make any effort to gild your words or try to be politically correct.

    At the end of it, they might still arrest you. But in those first hours they'll be desperate to interview you. If you wait too long, they might find you some other way, and you lose your leverage. But in those first few hours, when they are achingly anxious to locate the shooter and put all the pieces together, they'll make concessions. Once they've got the interview, the balance resets. But by then they should be able to decisively conclude that you are not going to be charged with anything.

    Assuming you are not arrested, you could try to slip into obscurity. But it won't work. The cameras will find you eventually. So use the time to reach out to media outlets that will spin the story in the way you want. Speak only to those journalists. And if you can get a book deal in that first week, take it.
    Virtute et Armis

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    36,325
    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    I can understand wanting to wallow in the limelight for some, but I generally dislike the bright lights. I like my quiet life. The reality is that I would be able to hide for a couple of hours at most. My phone would be burning up from friends and family calling to ask, “Umm, hey man. Were you just at the mall? Did you, um, do anything ‘interesting’ today?” Even if I avoided all cameras (unlikely) and slipped the cordon unnoticed, there would be 200 people who would be certain that it was me. And most of them have no concept of opsec.

    But if I make it out, it gives me the opportunity to contact an attorney, make arrangements to come in on my own, and control the media to some extent. Imagine freezing out all of the mainstream media and speaking only with John Stossel, Steven Crowder, et al.

    The “run” here is short-lived. But it buys me some time and control, and the normal downsides are absent. Even if you run, you still maintain hero status. No one is going to question whether you were justified.
    So what I simply DO NOT understand is this...you just interdicted and killed a terrorist or terrorists...why run? I personally think that is a bad move and begins to detract from your credibility. Perhaps LE guys can comment.

    You are not going to "disappear into the mists" so why even try to go there? Moreover...a lawyer? Really? I have been around not only the block but the world. The bigger the bad guy's body count and the more innocent the victims, the more likely you will be treated as a hero. You just saved dozens of lives...what exactly are we afraid of now? In no event in such a case, are you going to be arrested and interrogated in a dark room nor any of the bullshit that the liability-crew want people to believe. I was hoping we were beyond that.

    On the anonymity and quiet life thing - if that is what you want, do not intervene in anything. Its 2019 and the cameras are always rolling.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    36,325
    Me...Gabe Suarez...I am staying.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    5,772
    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    Some people will consider it petty and unimportant, but I dislike the idea of getting scooped up, stuffed in a concrete "room" (not a cell), and being interrogated. For any who are unfamiliar with the physical environment or the psychology behind it, here is what you are in for after you saved the world:

    You are spread out on the ground, stepped on, and forcibly disarmed. You are handcuffed. Three or more cops mirandize you over the next hour. You get stuffed in the back of a very uncomfortable car and driven to the police station. They place you in a "room" with a table that is selected based upon its inability to be picked up and thrown. It may just be a steel table that is bolted to the floor. There are a few plastic chairs, chosen because they would make ineffective weapons and because of their discomfort. There is no bathroom or sink. If you want to go to the bathroom, you have to ask. That is an intentional psychological game designed to make you feel submissive. They don't lock the door, because they want to be able to later say in court, "The door wasn't locked. He could leave at any time." But you can't leave. There is a giant old detective at the door, who looks very much like an ogre. If you want water, you have to ask for that, and they will bring you a little 3 oz. cup from the water fountain. They will likely leave you in there to stew for a while.

    Contrast that situation with this:

    My lawyer calls the district attorney, who in turn calls the detective handling the attack. He explains, "I represent the guy who killed all of those terrorists for you, and saved an untold number of innocent lives. I'm betting that you would like to talk to him. And he's willing to talk, but only if you agree to certain terms. First, you leave him alone until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow, when we meet at my office. If you try to contact him before then, he'll clam up. Second, you do not Mirandize him. You agree--in writing--that he is in custody and you are interrogating him. You agree in writing that nothing he says in this interview can be used against him in court. Third, you agree to not release his name to the public unless and until he chooses to do so himself. Fourth, you consent to us audio and video recording the entire interview and retaining our own record. Fifth, you get two seats at the table; anyone else has to wait outside."

    That's a ballsy play, but my bet is that they'd agree. And if they don't then you stay quiet. If they do agree, then you sit in a comfortable room, after a good night's sleep and a big breakfast, sipping fresh coffee while you recount the deeds of your heroism. You can speak as freely and as colorfully as you wish, not having to make any effort to gild your words or try to be politically correct.

    At the end of it, they might still arrest you. But in those first hours they'll be desperate to interview you. If you wait too long, they might find you some other way, and you lose your leverage. But in those first few hours, when they are achingly anxious to locate the shooter and put all the pieces together, they'll make concessions. Once they've got the interview, the balance resets. But by then they should be able to decisively conclude that you are not going to be charged with anything.

    Assuming you are not arrested, you could try to slip into obscurity. But it won't work. The cameras will find you eventually. So use the time to reach out to media outlets that will spin the story in the way you want. Speak only to those journalists. And if you can get a book deal in that first week, take it
    .
    Quoted this in its entirety because it needs to be read at least twice. Welcome to my world, and LawDog's.

    Don't be afraid. Be ready. If you choose to stay, understand that things may not go as planned.

    None of this detracts from the use of the flowchart, or from how you should articulate your version of events.

    This is not a typical deadly force situation.
    Last edited by Papa; 01-21-2019 at 10:29 AM.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I rode the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer (as modified)

    "What cannot be remedied must be endured."

    Vale et omnia quae.

    P:28

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    36,325
    OR...YOU STAY

    And have your pistol put away in the holster. If you had time to do a Houdini, you also had time to simply holster. When first contact is made it won't be as some think. Then you set forth your case of what you did...all the cops there will be jealous as hell. You will be interviewed and questions will be asked but - NEWSFLASH - they have it all on video anyway.

    As the first call comes in, everyone like me is rushing for the shot. Even the fat kids are setting up a perimeter. When the first shots are fired you have time to run away, or to engage. There won't be time for both unless you are at Mayberry PD. So if you engage, you have eaten up your "disappear into the mist" time, even if that were possible. Holstering and taking a good position and then you yourself making a call will be an option I would select.

    The other factor some of you forget is that you are not alone with the bad guys. How many people will see you, "a man with a gun", and sending your description and out to the dispatchers.

    And now you are seen fleeing? How many guys rolling to that scene, being given your description, and now seeing you fleeing the scene might be more inclined to simply shoot you in the back with a rifle from a distance? Or seeing you get into a vehicle, or....just too much to go wrong in an urban area kids. You won't be getting away unless everyone rolling to the scene is an idiot. The best lawyer in the world won't matter if you are dead because you were shot by a six month over-excited boot as you fled the scene.

    Better idea in MY WORLD is to stay and control the situation on scene. Its not as hard as you might think, and there are ways to do this which are time proven.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    1
    Thank you for adding me Mr. Suarez

    The run away and come back with the attorney is a very wishful concept. First, as Gabriel mentioned, getting out and away will probably not happen. Even the victims are collected and controlled. Fair or not, everyone is a suspect until proven otherwise. Those attempting to evade collection and controlling will probably be dealt with as fleeing suspects. Its the way it is. Suspects have often attempted to hide among the victims and may even have accomplices. See Stockholm Syndrome.

    The entire premise that your attorney will be able to speak for you in an event he was not present for is a non-starter. He won't. Additionally, you will know at the outset what you have become involved in. An mass casualty terror event. What are we afraid of? We have done a good thing. This is a diametrically different event than a common street fight with ambiguities of motive. I think someone discussed the differences between street self defense and terrorist interdiction before.

    As well, the suspect outstanding, verified man with a gun at the event with your description is a very real thing. My guys will be beside themselves for not having arrived in time to kill the terrorists. Can you imagine their fervor at apprehending you when your description is broadcast as an additional suspect seen fleeing the scene in your clothes and your car? It is a very good chance you won't get your call before we find you.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    36,325
    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector Callahan View Post
    Suspects have often attempted to hide among the victims and may even have accomplices. See Stockholm Syndrome.
    As I recall...the SAS killed a terrorist hiding among the victims at Princess Gate. Great perspective I had forgotten about.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    6,470
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Me...Gabe Suarez...I am staying.
    Lol... for the high fives... Why go somewhere, it’s not as if you can hide from that. You will be on about 20 different YouTube live videos before you even holster your weapon....

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Southeast Florida
    Posts
    1,689
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The other factor some of you forget is that you are not alone with the bad guys. How many people will see you, "a man with a gun", and sending your description and out to the dispatchers.

    And now you are seen fleeing? How many guys rolling to that scene, being given your description, and now seeing you fleeing the scene might be more inclined to simply shoot you in the back with a rifle from a distance? Or seeing you get into a vehicle, or....just too much to go wrong in an urban area kids. You won't be getting away unless everyone rolling to the scene is an idiot. The best lawyer in the world won't matter if you are dead because you were shot by a six month over-excited boot as you fled the scene.

    Better idea in MY WORLD is to stay and control the situation on scene. Its not as hard as you might think, and there are ways to do this which are time proven.
    I'm with LawDog in theory, but this point by Gabe may have to over-ride my preference for staying in the shadows. That's just life in 2019--everybody is trying to get the next viral video on their phone, gain Twitter notoriety with their picture of the suspect, etc.

    I think LawDog's approach might have more merit in an isolated incident where you have done nothing wrong but want to control the interaction with police on your terms. I appreciate his thoughts on the subject!

    Regarding the SAS guy--I find it amusing to think that many of the same people calling him a hero were just the day before part of the anti-masculinity social media mob. Does anybody think Piers Morgan wouldn't be part of that crowd?

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ier-as-Shabaab

    “Risked his life to storm the building and save so many innocent people - with daring, aggression, stoicism and dominance.” Hey Piers--those are otherwise known as traditional masculine traits. Feeling any cognitive dissonance? Probably not...

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Chattanooga TN
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    1,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    You are not going to "disappear into the mists" so why even try to go there?
    If they are thinking they will just do their best Jim Riley impersonation that is pretty unlikely with cameras everywhere these days.... no one just disappears into history anymore.
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
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    TRAIN with me....https://suarezinternational.com/sear...h_query=harris

    Fundamentalist Christian Man at Arms

    AKA - CRUEL HAND LUKE

    Joel 3:10 - Beat your plowshares into swords , and your pruning hooks into spears; train even your weaklings to be warriors.

    Through HIS power I can walk on water..IF I just have the faith and courage to get out of the boat.

    A good man who's done a couple of bad things along the way....

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