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  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2015
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    Grand Prairie, TX
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    682
    Quote Originally Posted by Warped Mindless View Post
    Many people don't train as much as they should because they feel they could never get to a level where they could do what the SAS guy did. Its their delusion that holds them back.
    Those that believe you never will, won’t. Plain and simple. It’s LOSELY the lottery analogy. If you don’t play you won’t win.

    If you don’t get training and practice, you not only will never have the confidence in your physical ability to take such action, you may not have the mental ability either.

    I feel if the same SAS guy had only a Suarez Glock or P226 and a couple of mags, he may have still done the exact same thing. Why? Because he knew he could.


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    Chris

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Exiled in Texas
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    7,349
    He did indeed win the lottery. I saw this, and posted about it on the sillier forms of social media, but was waiting for more details to come out before discussing it here. It seems, though, that we have all the details we are going to get. The media isn't very interested in reporting on this. I suppose I can understand, given all of the much more important events going on in the world--like a high school kid with a confused look on his face while an old indian bangs on a drum, or the fact that the government has been shut down for longer than ever before (and yet my life seems unaffected).

    There were two glaring differences here that would not translate to my life in any way: (1) It was in Kenya, with all of the baggage that entails, and (2) I have no actual operational authority. Africa is different in so many ways. The Nairobi police are a joke. He was very wise to simply task them with blocking the exits, and then going in alone to do the fighting. I'm not sure if he actually even needed the exits blocked, or if he was just giving them busywork so that they would feel like they were doing something. Either way, it worked. There is also something about the Bold White Man showing up and issuing commands that invites a different reaction there. The local cops will actually tend to do whatever Bold White Man tells them to do. If you tried that in Detroit, you'd get a big Sam Jackson, "Heeeelll no," from the local cops. The local cops might even use actual physical force to prevent you from going back into the building.

    Another difference, though, is that I would not be going back into the building. I never would have left--at least not until I had whacked all the moles that were present. It would actually be easier to engage them if they were actively shooting, because the sound of my gunfire would blend with their own. My hope would be to employ the shoot-the-last-turkey strategy, like Alvin York. If you could slowly pick them off, that would be the best approach. If your first shot invites return fire from a half-dozen AKs, that would be unfortunate.

    I have contemplated actually carrying a silencer. I haven't done it. I agree that it is generally overkill and I know that it would invite lots of unwanted scrutiny in any contact with police. But this is one of the rare scenarios where having one could be truly advantageous. It might allow you to snipe the terrorists from a distance and remain undetected. As loud as a suppressed 9mm is, it would be virtually impossible to hear in a mall filled with screaming people.

    This scenario also goes back to the old question of whether you pick up the terrorist's AK. Knowing that the AK makes you look like a bad guy, and realizing that it could invite fire from responding cops, I would still pick up a dead tango's rifle if (a) I had the opportunity to do so, and (b) I perceived more than one other bad guy. I can't trust his rifle to be zeroed; I can't even trust it to work, but it probably will. And I'd rather have an AK than a Glock in a gunfight. It would be difficult in the extreme to identify the correct moment to again drop the AK. It is beyond debate, though, that having an AK is preferred when engaging a group of a dozen armed terrorists. I would therefore use the bad guy's rifle.

    How quick do you move, and how far do you go? Once I've worked out in my head that it is in fact a multiple-terrorist attack, not some random crazy guy or someone murdering his cheating wife, I would kick into hunter mode. My steps would sometimes be cautious, and I might pause momentarily at good cover, but I would mostly be moving very quickly and pie-ing my corners at 90% of full-speed. For the most part, I would just be engaging targets as they present themselves, like pop-ups on Hogan's Alley. There may be occasion for more complicated tactics--if I saw a group moving in unison, or had enough foresight to see that the shot would improve if I waited--but I would mostly approach it as a course of targets to be shot on a clock. Stopping is a hard thing to plan for. Depending on where you are in a structure, the goal is going to be to run through it in as straightforward a way as possible. But malls, hotels, schools, and all of the places that seem to be chosen by terrorists tend to sprawl rather than run a straight line. I would want to cover as much territory as possible, but would not be diving deep into cul-de-sacs. I would stay mainly to the straight course, and when I reached the end I would consider that to be the end. If I had killed all the bad guys that I saw, even though there might be more buried within the maze, that would likely be the end of my run. The exception would be if I heard continued gunfire behind me, giving me a target to head toward.

    What if you run into the cops? Employ all the techniques we've discussed to avoid getting shot by friendlies. In this case, the SAS guy is the aberrant danger that can't be planned for. If I had seen the Somali terrorists and then saw him, I would have guessed that he was not one of the terrorists. But would he think the same of me? I hope so.

    If everything went perfectly, and I earned a dozen scalps that day, my goal at the end would be to just get out of there. I would try to blend into the screaming masses. I would not ditch my gun--that's too weird to explain later. I would holster up and run out with my hands up. Chances are they would corral me and I would have to come clean and go through a really weird through-my-attorney debriefing. But I would try to slip through the cordon and be on my merry way. I would let the news media pontificate about what happened and dream up a story of guardian angels or government conspiracies.
    Virtute et Armis

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    122
    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    There is also something about the Bold White Man showing up and issuing commands that invites a different reaction there. The local cops will actually tend to do whatever Bold White Man tells them to do. If you tried that in Detroit, you'd get a big Sam Jackson, "Heeeelll no," from the local cops. The local cops might even use actual physical force to prevent you from going back into the building.
    This was the first thing I was wondering about when I read that he left, got gear and returned. I mean, he may not have looked like al-Shabab, but he definitely looked like a guy running around a mall looking for people to shoot. I suppose the good guys would know he was there if he posted them as door guards, but for that fortune he might have gotten shot by a jumpy or motivated anti-terrorist. Kinda seems like a can of worms for what would be a 'fight with what you have' event. At least here anyway; seems like it worked out just fine for him this time.

    Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
    She asked me to whisper the three words every little girl wants to hear when they grow up. So I told her "I'm a pilot."

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  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
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    The location plays a big part in this. The cops there were happy to stand back and let the SAS guy have fun. This is what made it easy for him to go get his gear and come back. If something like this happened here there would only be a short window to go to town on the bad guys before the local cops start showing up. Depending on the location the cops might not be keen to just stand around. Hard telling these days given the actions of those turds down in Broward.

    As it has been said here many times: You are on your own.
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  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Made it to Free America
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    11,250
    I think we need to understand that the Kenya incident is unique. First of all its Afrika. Kenya is more westernized then much of Afrika; but its still not Chicago. LawDog is correct, the way this was done (lone SAS "off duty" leaving then returning with rifle), simply wouldn't happen here. YES it was a task worthy of songs and adult beverages long after we're all dust; but its not something to train for, not in that role. Conversely, being always armed, and ready, and yes willing to fight with what we have IS likely.

    LD, I too have considered carrying a suppressor and I too have passed on it (for now). Ive pondered a lot of other silly things (Im sure some would call stupid), and passed on those too; but I keep thinking about options to increase my fighting ability to take the pain to the enemy.

    Leaving when its over, (Escaping un-noticed), doesn't seem likely here, neither does remaining anonymous, and THAT is where KNOWING what to say really matters.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    35,153
    Some points after one cup this AM

    1). Lets ignore the Africa thing. It is unlikely we will be there. Even the Africans don't want to be there. But we can use our imagination can't we, for an event in the USA.

    2). In the USA you have a window of time to engage. Ostensibly the police will be coming. I know southern AZ agencies will be racing for the kill...for a fact. Broward County didn't, nor did they in Orlando so assume they are coming but the ETA is undetermined.

    3). After my CT training and discussions with many of these guys, my rifles stay at home or in the vehicles and I will be fighting with my pistol. To that end, the pistol is the first thing in the wardrobe...magazines second. Dress for battle everyday.

    4). Tactics are the most important point. Its not going to look like some spandex sausage man running through a 3 gun stage. Why not? Because to borrow Bruce Lee's famous line and modify it, targets don't shoot back. So....stealth with urgency...killing with cold intent...no warnings...no yelling...no emotions...none of the fear based, liability focused, USA CCW bullsh*t.

    5). The suppressor is an idea I have considered for a long time. Let me consider the issues at hand with this.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    35,153
    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Leaving when its over, (Escaping un-noticed), doesn't seem likely here, neither does remaining anonymous, and THAT is where KNOWING what to say really matters.
    Chicago or similar place...as likely for me to be there as in Nairobi so its not a consideration. NPE states have made their bed and the victim counts will likely be high due to their stupid laws.

    Leaving when its over - why in God's name would you want to do that? I want to stay around, tell my story with pride (if with momentarily feigned antelopian reluctance), I haven't broken any laws nor done anything wrong, and I want to take credit for all the terrorist kills.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
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    5,662
    Random thoughts:

    1. Ideal suppressor would add no length and no bulk to the pistol to be practical for me, off duty or when I retire. I'm a short waisted guy and a G34 length pistol will not be carried AIWB without....discomfort. This is where a modified G26 has potential.

    Not interested in why it can't be done. Make it so.

    2. ROEs must be different for off-duty, retired LEO and civilians. No warnings, no arrests in this situation. Stealth with urgency, yes, I like that. Now for my next cup.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I rode the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer (as modified)

    "What cannot be remedied must be endured."

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    P:28

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Exiled in Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Leaving when its over - why in God's name would you want to do that? I want to stay around, tell my story with pride (if with momentarily feigned antelopian reluctance), I haven't broken any laws nor done anything wrong, and I want to take credit for all the terrorist kills.
    I can understand wanting to wallow in the limelight for some, but I generally dislike the bright lights. I like my quiet life. The reality is that I would be able to hide for a couple of hours at most. My phone would be burning up from friends and family calling to ask, “Umm, hey man. Were you just at the mall? Did you, um, do anything ‘interesting’ today?” Even if I avoided all cameras (unlikely) and slipped the cordon unnoticed, there would be 200 people who would be certain that it was me. And most of them have no concept of opsec.

    But if I make it out, it gives me the opportunity to contact an attorney, make arrangements to come in on my own, and control the media to some extent. Imagine freezing out all of the mainstream media and speaking only with John Stossel, Steven Crowder, et al.

    The “run” here is short-lived. But it buys me some time and control, and the normal downsides are absent. Even if you run, you still maintain hero status. No one is going to question whether you were justified.
    Virtute et Armis

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    5,662
    LD:

    Control what you can. If it happens to me today, I'll want time to make domestic arrangements, load up again, reach out to a lawyer on the short list, and get some nourishment. And I can envision having to go back in, but that's for another thread.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I rode the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer (as modified)

    "What cannot be remedied must be endured."

    Vale et omnia quae.

    P:28

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