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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    NWFL
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    16,537

    Default 22 degree grip angle of the glock and 18 degree Non-OEM frames

    Apparently the 22 degree grip of the OEM glock is disliked by some and there are 18 degree grip angled non-OEM Glock frames out there. I happen to like a higher degree of grip angle to the gun and do not see a reason for the 18 degree angle that more closely approximates the 1911. I have usually added an arched mainspring housing to my 1911's. The 1911 always had a reputation of naturally pointing low do this for me. Many full size target pistols have pronounced angles for the grip.
    Any of the people here have thoughts on this.

    The US army the updated the 1911 prior to WWII with the arched mainspring housing while not changing the front grip angle does induce an angle at the rear of the grip helping to push the pointed gun upward when gripped in the human hand.

    Below is a gen 5 profile

    A non-OEM Glock frame profile

    Walther
    Walther-SSP-Target-Pistol. Note the pronounced grip angle


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    SE Louisiana
    Posts
    268
    A flat mainspring housed 1911 is what always pointed most naturally for me and so I always assumed that that angle was what was best for me. This advice has also been echoed and reinforced by every "Gun Knowledge" source I have ever come across: close your eyes, point the gun, check your aim, buy the one that points best.
    Well about 6 months ago I finally jumped on the Glock train despite the fact that Glocks pointed high for me. Part of this transition included more reading and participation here on WT.
    And what did I discover?
    Gabe's instruction that grip angle was irrelevant because practice and repetition of the draw/presentation would retrain your body to correctly point any given angle.
    And surprise, surprise (that was sarcasm), he was indeed correct. A bit of dry work everyday for a week or so and my G19 now points dead-nuts on every time.
    And conversely, if I now grab a 1911 it points low, which further proves that I have indeed retrained by natural presentation.
    Just another example of how some of the Standard Laws of Shooting are just plain wrong.
    I even wonder now if there is such a thing as "Your Natural Grip Angle" or if it just happens to be whatever you initially work with so you think that is your baseline. I started out with a 1911 so that is what felt most natural to me... I would now bet that a person starting out with a Glock does not have to "retrain" their presentation but rather just simply learn it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
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    4,942
    "The Myth of Grip" was the thread, I think, and the gist was to train with what you have until proper presentation becomes automatic.
    Warrior for the working day.

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  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    THE MYTH OF GRIP

    Monday, September 01, 2014

    Guys will spend hours discussing how to make the grip feel "natural" on a handgun. Often they will buy more complicated systems simply because of some intangible feel to the grip. Or, they will spend hours grinding on a perfectly good hadgun to ostensibly make it fit better. Even better is when they, being poor shots, blame it on the ill-conceived grip angle of the weapon they shot poorly with.

    Fact: Shooting well has to do with aligning the pistol on target and not derailing that alignment with poor trigger control. A modified grip angle will not help you do this if you do not understand how to shoot.

    Fact: In 2014, caliber is irrelevant between 9mm and 40, and 45 ACP. And even a smaller caliber is better than nothing. I'd rather go to a gunfight with a 25 AUTO than unarmed. And to any dissenters, I would suggest they take a magazine from a 25 in the face before commenting further.

    Early on in my police career I carried a S&W 5906. Similar to one pictured above, it was arguably the worst handgun ever made. Yet, I trained with it, learned some ways to hack the trigger system, and developed an automatic wrist position through sheer repetitions that brought the sights exactly to the point I was looking.

    And just to give you an example of what this horrible grip and horrible trigger accomplished...I shot the highest score on my agency qualifications. In 1990 I took that same horrible duty gun to Gunsite and won the shootoff against a bunch of LAPD SWAT guys running custom 1911s.

    Now I am not suggesting we sell our Glocks for S&W 5906s, simply pointing out that grip angle is irrelevant. It is a learned action/position. A few years later, I was able to convince my racist chief that the Glock was a Safe-Action and not a Single Action. Thus began my life with the Glock 17, then 19, then 22, 21 at one point, and back to 17.

    When I took that first Glock 17 home I out it through some dry practice drills. Lo and behold! The Glock pointed way up there. My grip, cultivated for the S&W 5906, made the Glock point high.

    Now what most modern gun people would do is type up a scathing post on some pajama forum about how horrible the Glock points for them, then trade it in on some XD or something, or take it to the garage and begin grinding. Know what I did? I went home on my next "kick off" (the first day off of a four day cycle...meaning I was off Mon-Thurs), and did 1000 draw and dry press cycles per day. By the time I went back to work on Friday, I qualified Distinguished Expert an hour before shift, holstered up the Glock 17 and never looked back.

    At various points I was required to carry different weapons for different "jobs" ranging from an HK USP, a Beretta 92, and even a CZ-75 (don't ask). I simply did the same thing and molded by method to the weapon. Their grips, different than what I was accustomed to, was irrelevant.

    What is important is width, and not angle. A little girl would do better with a Glock 19 than a Glock 21...as one example. Also important is weight. Avoid weapons that have had their heyday a century ago. There is nothing a 1911 can do today that a modern striker fired quality pistol cannot do better. Trigger is important. Avoid those internal affairs triggers, and double action triggers if you can. The day of the external hammer fired double action pistol has passed. Avoid external safeties such as thumb and grip safeties. Time and again I have seen them missed by the shooter, and not be disengaged in hard drills. They are NOT safer, they just make it harder for you to use them under duress.

    Why do I bring this up? Because as a teacher, my job is to point the student to the easiest to use weapons (shorn of superfluous safeties, levers or obnoxious trigger pulls), the most reliable weapons (generally the simplest to use, and simplest to maintain) , the most prolific (what do you see in most police holsters as well as in the holsters of the Ranger and SF Units? Not 1911s, XDs, or M&Ps), and the most maintainable weapons (that have the most market support for parts, accessories, magazines, holsters, etc.).

    And that weapon in 2014 is the Glock system. Let the discussion begin.


    AND THAT WAS FROM FIVE YEARS AGO!!!
    ,
    ,
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Meh. Don't care. Nothing skill can't over come with a couple of reps to get use to it.
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
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    SE Louisiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    "The Myth of Grip" was the thread, I think, and the gist was to train with what you have until proper presentation becomes automatic.
    Exactly... That was the article that Gabe wrote and just reposted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkface View Post
    Meh. Don't care. Nothing skill can't over come with a couple of reps to get use to it.
    Sure... IF YOU KNOW THAT. The modern prevailing wisdom says to avoid a pistol that points wrong so why even try if the "experts" tell you the mission is doomed?

    Gabe's article was the First place I ever read this contradictory bit of wisdom. Maybe a few other people in the community know and teach this as well, but here is where I found it, so that is what matters to me.
    I was slowly figuring this out on my own but it was very refreshing and encouraging to see it in Black and White and have it confirmed by someone a hell of lot more experienced than myself.
    Last edited by John_Frederick; 01-19-2019 at 09:59 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    8,692
    Get a Glock (or whatever in your mind is the best) train with it, shoot the crap out if it like it was intended for. Grip angle and all the other stupid stuff out there will all disappear from your mind...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Texas
    Posts
    446
    The timeliness of this article is priceless for me. Had been carrying a Sig 229 for over a decade until switching to a Glock 21 (.45 is a personal preference) about a year ago. Tried some dry work with the new Glock, and the repetition scars from the Sig 229 were very apparent: my natural point of aim was off...

    So what did I do? Spent the whole weekend doing exactly as Gabe described above. Thousands of repetitions later, my draw, trigger squeeze, and point of aim are just as natural and smooth as they were with the Sig. And in the process I’ve also grown to really like the Glock. I’ll perform this same exercise again when I have SI install an RMR a little later this year.

    Hardware upgrades are crucial (RMRs, trigger jobs, comps, etc.), but don’t forget the software upgrades that go along with them (holster draws, dry-firing, reloading, etc.). Acquisition is only the first step. Becoming familiar with the new technology is just as important.
    “This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.” - Churchill

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    McKinney
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    1,790
    When I do a lot of dry firing with the Sig and try to switch back to Glock I notice. At distances where I wouldn’t notice my sights (dot) it’s not far off enough to matter. At distances where I use the sights it’s just a minor correction up or down.
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,342
    Gabe said it best, “grip angle is irrelevant.” I tell this to people who complain how the grip angle, “sucks” on a Glock hence why they don’t own one. It’s amazing how lazy or just plain stupid people are judging by some of the responses I get.

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