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  1. #11
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    MINE IN BOLD

    Quote Originally Posted by psalms23dad View Post
    Guys whom carry and train for self defense but run deep into the competitive side of things seem to place a unbalanced position on tactics and techniques. Yes marksmanship is important but is it not tactics that tend to win fights? Not asking a rhetorical question here but a serious one.

    Other than a proactive-preemptive event, such as a terrorist interdiction (which makes most traditional gun people give birth on the spot), where accuracy is paramount, it is positioning, tactics and timing. All things that are ignored in gun sport.

    When Rob Leatham teaches spec ops guys, and that fact gets thrown around as to provide traction to shoot competitively, who really thinks he's teaching tactics?

    And yet, the sort of shooting that you will do preemptively has nothing to do with the sort of shooting Rob is famous for. Proactive shooting has no need for blinding speed as it is in essence, a murder and an ambush. And for reactive shooting, it is not about accuracy nor speed, but rather about the ability to move and evade and react properly.

    As has been mentioned, you need sound tactics to prevail a fight. You need different tactics to win a a shooting game.

    Exactly.

    I approach a match with doing what I think is right, not what wins the match. That usually results with me being in top 3 in accuracy but middle of road with over all score based off time. But I only shoot 1 or 2 matches a year.

    Well...eventually you either get happy doing something that has marginal value to the real mission, or you stop, or you play the game. Few will want to settle for middle of the road...specially when the entire exercise will not add one iota of winnability to you in a gunfight...not one.

    I don't understand how someone who is a gamer thinks that gaming makes them a better fighter. I even had a RSO at an IDPA match tell me that IDPA "is the closest thing to a real gunfight "....... and I'm certain he believes that.

    Because for them, it is all about ego and the approval of others
    Gabriel Suarez

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  2. #12
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    Mine in bold

    Quote Originally Posted by EDELWEISS View Post
    Ive said it before and been scolded for; but gun games are counter to training. Training IS training. Games don't offer enough shooting to factor out the game, at least not without serious counter gaming which is usually at the expense of the game. Games don't let you see the mistake you made, then re-run the course to make the corrections and reinforce them, so that you LEARN.

    Good points

    Still I have LEARNED. I learned that first shots matter. I learned that getting into a good position for a long distance precision shot was more important than a bad position assumed fast. I learned that I don't care about winning, if winning is a game and I learned that I can still make precision shots fairly rapidly doing things the way I learned them, so many years ago.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #13
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    Some points that I believe are not only important, but essential - and ignored completely in sport. The sport-centric, assuming their sport is the equal of reality, would tell you that since these things are not focused on in sports, they are not relevant. But real life, blood and death experience tells us otherwise.

    1). It is not about how fast you are, but rather how good your timing is.

    2). Strategy defines the overall objective and goal. Is it to start the fight or to avoid the fight (there is a time for each).

    3). An understanding of your strategy will develop tactics to support it. Tactics will allow you to escape safely, or to get into position for the shot.

    4). Techniques are those things which prosecute tactics...in this context, shooting. This is the least important and requires the less analysis, thinking and skills.

    So...sport tests the least important aspect and in the wrong context and wrong manner. My opinion based on life experience.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #14
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    I consider shooting sports and other activities proximal to fighting to be "martial activities." Martial activities involve consonant skills / attributes (skills that overlap with fighting skills) and, as separate disciplines, they also have dissonant skills / attributes (other skills that aren't needed for fighting). If someone lacks the brains to discern between the two bad things happen.

    Gabe has previously spoken about this in regards to fencing which, if I recall correctly, had valuable footwork lessons in it (consonant skills). I'm sure it had some other skills / attributes that aren't pertinent to actual fighting (dissonant skills).

    A few more:

    Activity: Flat Range Shooting

    Consonant Skills / Attributes: fundamental marksmanship, weapon manipulation, malfunction clearance, drawing from holster
    Dissonant Skills / Attributes: 1 way range, no 360*, sterile (flat, clean) environment, no movement
    Resultant stupidity: no movement, "the range dance," shooting from retention instead of going hands on, other sacred cows

    Activity: Competition shooting / IDPA / IPSC / whatever

    Consonant Skills / Attributes: movement + shooting / manipulating / drawing
    Dissonant Skills / Attributes: gaming rules, artifacts of timer, 1 way range, no 360*,
    Resultant stupidity: "tactical sequence", running from station to station, not using cover, poor CQB tactics, etc...

    Activity: paintball / airsoft (recreational)

    Consonant Skills / Attributes: 2 way range, use of cover, movement, actually shooting a person
    Dissonant Skills / Attributes: type of cover, range/distances, gun/marker ergonomics and manipulation, rates of fire, visibility of projectile, safety rules
    Resultant stupidity: looking for a hit, stopping after hitting / being hit, engaging light while shooting, min / max engagement distances, etc...

    The same could be said of first person shooter games, long distance shooting, martial art or MMA training / sparring vs fighting on a street, and other disciplines that I am not familiar with.

    Point is, martial activities aren't training, nor are they practice for fighting. But they aren't worthless because of consonant skills, especially if you refuse to play into the dissonant skills.
    Last edited by apamburn; 01-09-2019 at 08:43 PM.

  5. #15
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    I can see the thread turning into a division between fighting focused views and those wanting to justify their sport position. That's fine, I will continue doing what I am doing...and NOT doing what I am not. Its not a matter of those things that help and those things that are irrelevant...it is that those irrelevant things will actually become a part of your programming and will hurt you. And it is not a matter of lacking or having brains, it is a matter of what you program yourself to do. I think we have said that all along.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    I can see the thread turning into a division between fighting focused views and those wanting to justify their sport position. That's fine, I will continue doing what I am doing...and NOT doing what I am not. Its not a matter of those things that help and those things that are irrelevant...it is that those irrelevant things will actually become a part of your programming and will hurt you. And it is not a matter of lacking or having brains, it is a matter of what you program yourself to do. I think we have said that all along.
    I think this was what I was getting at in the first post. Anything done with repetition will create pathways in the brain which leads to habits. Those habits either help or hurt you because what you do habitually will be what you do under stress.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    I think this was what I was getting at in the first post. Anything done with repetition will create pathways in the brain which leads to habits. Those habits either help or hurt you because what you do habitually will be what you do under stress.
    Yup. Perfectly said.

    I'll add one more thing.
    Look at the industry. What "defensive" firearm instructors are advocating competition? Those whom are, are useally sponsored or paid to be an advocate....
    Not naming names but a "big" named guy teaching classes has jumped ship and went from one brand of sponsorship to another, each time band X is the best there is or ever was.
    There is a lot of back scratching going on behind the curtain. I've been exposed to some of the firearms industry and it's antics..... look at it this way. How does a nobody podcaster go from knowing nothing about firearms to teaching defensive classes within a what, 5 year period?
    A lot of stuff goes on becuase there is a lot of money and product changing hands.
    Ok, so Gabe sells product. Yes he does but it has his name on it, it's different than a guy who sells himself to earn sponsorship. Gabe can say whatever he wants, no one is controlling his message. Honestly Gabe would sell a lot more if he catered to "those other guys".
    Last edited by psalms23dad; 01-10-2019 at 07:58 AM.
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  8. #18
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    I don't want to be mistaken for a pro-competition-crusader, but I've been having more thoughts churning in my head for the past day or so I'd like to describe.

    Brent described how we use force-on-force, kata, and other training tools in conjunction with one another. Each component of training has its limitations, and when the components are not properly integrated gaps in our skills and minds can be created. Even worse, if areas are left untrained, bad habits can be formed. The same goes for using competition (in any martial form like BJJ or IDPA) as "training", when the goals of the sport are not aligned with the reality of the fight (see the video Gabe posted).

    My original opinion was that our training tools are simply too limited by safety and circumstance to accurately reflect the real fight. Our force-on-force drills are low-fidelity representations of the fight, just like running tackling drills in football represent only part of the game. So one could think that if we had access to "the matrix" and could put ourselves in a perfect representation of a fight (like a replay of the Orlando shooting), with real-world consequences on hold, that this perfect simulation could be the optimal training test. If you do well at this perfect simulation, you could be confident that you would perform similarly in real life.

    The beautiful thing about sports like swimming, boxing, and sprinting is that you get immediate feedback when you suck. You know where you stand and know how you can improve. You see your foes and your friends and (in the confines of the sport) can train to better yourself in a specific way. A level playing field is created and everything is decided in the arena. "The mat doesn't lie", as BJJ folks say. There isn't much that is equivalent in the study of combat that doesn't involve real violence and death.

    If we had a perfect matrix simulation of fights, we would have the justification to build a fighting system around the simulation in a similar way soccer players have built a "soccer system" of training around their field.

    I know this is a hypothetical situation, so bear with me, but if training partners could be placed in the matrix and be given roles to play, with all regard for safety and real-world consequences on hold, would this be tarred with the "competition effect" like our current force-on-force can be? Make one partner the active shooter (with a typical active shooter's objectives) and one the "good guy" with the goal to kill the shooter, then set them loose in a perfect simulation. Would this repeatable drill be subject to the same competitiveness force-on-force does?

    If the problem simply lies in the training tool's dissociation from reality, this can be mitigated by careful engineering, but not totally fixed. Afterall, we don't have a matrix and cannot recreate a fight perfectly. Every form of combat training, competitive or otherwise, has its potential to stray its practitioner "from the path" because shortcutting the drill to win breaks the simulation of reality that we constructed.

    Finally, the crux of my question. Could a sport be created and carefully engineered to align the goals and circumstances of the competitors so close to reality, that the quirks, gaps, and bad habits developed in regards to real combat are considered "acceptable". Just like a good gymnast is not a perfect crossfitter, but can be very well adapted to crossfit with minimal re-training. Maybe a great "American Gunfighting League" player could be easily adapted to being a true warrior.

    Or I'm totally wrong and adapting true combat to simulation is a fool's errand because combat's very nature can't lend itself to simulation.

    If you've read this far, thanks for bearing with me.
    You shouldn't be thinking 'oh God, I'm in a gunfight', you should be saying 'THANK GOD I'M IN A GUNFIGHT!' " - Gabe Suarez

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  9. #19
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    The mat doesn't lie. But it may tell you the wrong story.
    Brent Yamamoto
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  10. #20
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    Think about GOALS.

    All competition has a goal. Score points. Cross the finish line first. Pin the other guy. Knock the other guy out. Etc.

    The rules are all designed to facilitate one of the competitors achieving that goal. All other concerns will be either ignored completely or mitigated somehow by the rules.

    Many if not most of the rules are in place for safety (certainly the case for training but also in competition). It is human nature to want to win, and naturally people will begin to do all they can to make the rules work to their advantage to meet the goal of the competition.

    Now if we had access to the Matrix and had training that was designed by smart instructors, yes, it could be the best training available.

    But still, when the element of competition is added, human nature will do everything it can to game the system. This isn't all bad...indeed it's a good thing that we are competitive by nature. It's one thing that drives us to be better than our enemies and to overcome them.

    But I am cynical that any competition will ever be invented in the real world that does not give competitors wrong ideas about real world violence. I am cynical this could even happen in the fantasy world.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

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