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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Chattanooga TN
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    3,345
    Just some quick random thoughts... bear with me....

    We are talking about guns with barrels 2" and shorter. There is a fair chance that the JHP bullets won't open reliably....ANY JHP bullts. There is a reason CCI (at the behest of NYPD) put a lot of R&D into their 135+p Short barrel JHP load.

    We are often also talking about using it in guns that are pretty light weight....like under a pound.

    We are also talking about use as a BACKUP gun.

    As a backup it may well be called upon to be used 1 handed (and maybe WEAK handed) in case of injury. How fast and well can you REALLY shoot that J frame loaded with +p ammo?

    Most people just frankly don't shoot 1 lb guns with 12-15 lb trigger pulls well with 2 hands much less 1 hand....especially with +P ammo.

    +P ammo designed for J frames not to give "more power" but to move the bullet fast enough that it is more likely for a traditional copper and lead JHP bullet to still peel open upon impact when driven out of a short barrel. The power increase is insignificant...the recoil is more significant.

    If we agree that hits are far more important than misses and we agree that holes in vital organs are far more damaging than hits in peripheral areas and we agree that pretty much ALL service calibers suck at stopping people and we agree that energy (and 100 lbs of energy is statistically insignificant) is not a factor in handgun wounding then we are left with some pretty simple parameters to work with...

    1. I need something I can shoot well in a lightweight gun that will not have a significant amount of muzzle flip so follow up shots (which are EXTREMELY LIKELY to be needed) can be made quickly even 1 handed.

    2. Since it is not expected to expand I want something that is likely to punch deep holes. (Wadcutters or solid copper HP bullets do this better than light weight lead and copper JHP)

    3. We are ostensibly discussing a BACK UP GUN. The odds of pulling it to begin with are limited. The odds of actually reloading it are even MORE limited. If it IS going to be pulled there is a good probability that you have suffered an injury already. So worrying more about the reload than the 5 on board hitting their target is maybe worrying about the wrong end of the equation.

    As for me , in steel framed guns like the SW 60 and 649 I use a +P lead HP. Soft lead is likely to open up and penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs. There is a reason that was pretty well the "standard" when everyone carried steel framed guns. A 20+ ounce gun will be pretty tame with a +p ...a 10oz gun...not so much.

    In Airweights and Titanium framed guns I like standard wadcutters. They crush tissue better than unexpanded HPs do and they have very little recoil and they tend to be easy to shoot accurately...even 1 handed. They don't NEED to be +p since they don't have to move fast enough to peel back a jacket.

    As to the reload? Wadcutters suck to try to do speedy reloads with (everything sucks to do speedy reloads with in a j frame) ...BUT....what are the REAL odds of you actually reloading your backup gun? What reloads the easiest? FMJ. So if we are terribly concerned with a fast reload being required then go with either a FMJ or a truncated flat point.
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  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
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    4,210
    I find the HSTs to be accurate in my bastardized 442, easy shooting one handed as well. Im still testing expansion/penetration but "looks" promising in other tests (youtube commandos ;) . I need to hit the goodwill to test it how it would likely be used (shooting thru a hoodie or jacket)
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Southeast United States
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    702
    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post
    I find the HSTs to be accurate in my bastardized 442, easy shooting one handed as well. Im still testing expansion/penetration but "looks" promising in other tests (youtube commandos ;) . I need to hit the goodwill to test it how it would likely be used (shooting thru a hoodie or jacket)
    You've roused my curiosity. Would you mind elaborating on how it's been bastardized? I'm always interested in how LEOs fit a gun to meet their mission.
    Redneck Zen
    "Be careful what you get good at."

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Zen View Post
    You've roused my curiosity. Would you mind elaborating on how it's been bastardized? I'm always interested in how LEOs fit a gun to meet their mission.
    Its a 442 with a clipdraw, a duty/carry trigger kit, and the titanium cylinder out of an exposed hammer scandium j-frame (timed for this gun). Wanted as light as possible and concealed hammer (for backup in a pocket or UC with a hoodie) , this fits the bill.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7,782
    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post
    Its a 442 with a clipdraw, a duty/carry trigger kit, and the titanium cylinder out of an exposed hammer scandium j-frame (timed for this gun). Wanted as light as possible and concealed hammer (for backup in a pocket or UC with a hoodie) , this fits the bill.
    Clip draw seems like a pretty good idea as long as it didn’t get snagged on shit. Gives you acouple of options vs holster/ pocket carry.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Third Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad newton View Post
    Clip draw seems like a pretty good idea as long as it didn’t get snagged on shit. Gives you acouple of options vs holster/ pocket carry.


    Nothing in the pocket but my hand and the gun, might screw with a reholster, but has never had an impact on the draw so far. And yes makes felony carry easier when needed.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7,782
    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post
    Nothing in the pocket but my hand and the gun, might screw with a reholster, but has never had an impact on the draw so far. And yes makes felony carry easier when needed.
    Lol... if it wasn’t for felons, a lot of you guys would be out of work. At least somebody named a carry position after them....:)

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    466
    I know that ballistic gel testing is not the end all and be all but it is a standardized testing medium to compare apples to apples. That said I would direct folks to look at the ballistic testing that Luckygunner did on their site. They recently studied 38sp loads out of both a 2in and 4in barrel revolver. 5 rounds of each type measured for depth and diameter of expansion after shooting through 5 layers of denim. You can also see how consistent the expansion is. Being a scientist myself I do realize that 5 is not an adequate sample for definitive decisions. However if I see one round that didn't expand 2-3 times out of 5 and another that all 5 expanded exactly the same, that says something to me.

    It changed my carry round in my j-frame.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Southeast United States
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    702
    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post
    Its a 442 with a clipdraw, a duty/carry trigger kit, and the titanium cylinder out of an exposed hammer scandium j-frame (timed for this gun). Wanted as light as possible and concealed hammer (for backup in a pocket or UC with a hoodie) , this fits the bill.
    Yeah, the titanium J-frames have spoiled me. I like how you rolled your own, fitting a titanium cylinder to your gun. I've a 340PD Ti that I carried for years and shot quite a lot. I got a 342 -- similar to what you put together -- as a spare, but rarely carried it. Oddly, I have an old Model 38 that I'd pair up with the 340; while it was a bit heavier, that particular Model 38 has an insanely slick trigger and has a crazy accurate POA/POI.

    I never tried the clip. I have a couple of holsters that worked all right -- including a de Santis ankle rig -- but they seemed a bit much. The 340 spent most of its time in various pockets in a ragged Uncle Mike's pocket holster. I still stick it in my pocket on occasion as backup to my Glock 19 or 43.

    Thanks for sharing.
    Last edited by Redneck Zen; 02-19-2019 at 06:58 PM.
    Redneck Zen
    "Be careful what you get good at."

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Harrisburg, MO
    Posts
    1,355
    Since most of the snubby class are fixed sight examples, I run them with the old "Metro Load" (or "FBI Load" or "Dade Load" depending on where you were living in the 70's 80's) consisting of a lead semi wadcutter hollow point 158 grain bullet loaded to plus P pressure levels. Remington, Winchester and Federal all run this ammo upon occasion, still selling it in 50 round boxes. Buffalo Bore makes my carry ammo. I have had great luck with their ammo, and it is loaded hot. With no jacket to overcome, they were more likely to expand than anything else. But more importantly for me is they shoot to point of aim with a fixed sight revolver, which I can't say about some of the lighter bullets. Can't use them with the Smith and Wesson Sc or Ti versions as they tend to jump crimp when the revolver weight gets that low. The snubby chapter is more or less closed in my life in terms of actual street carry, but one goes with me to the range a lot. With regular 158 grain lead loads they are fun to shoot and you will surprise people with their accuracy.

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