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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Default Tactics Question - How many rounds per threat target?


    This incident may have been discussed already.

    Second officer shoots to slide lock, downing bad guy. But what if a second bad guy had come out of the vehicle and begun to engage while second officer was changing mags? Should the officer have shot to slide lock?

    Or different are a CCWer in an office building walking down the corridor. You hear shots and screaming. Two men with AKs come around the corner about 10 meters away. One begins to see you and swing in your direction while the second is turned to his right shooting thru an office door. You draw and engage target one. How many rounds a do you fire at target one before engaging target two?
    Last edited by Gabriel Suarez; 01-05-2019 at 07:52 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Beyond The Wall
    The clinical would say one...I will say a bunch and transition to other mid bunch. The era of an 8 shot or even ten shot primary weapon has passed.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    I drive right through there all the time.

    I'd put a burst into the one guy, put a burst into the other guy and be ready to put another burst into another guy.

    The first time I took CRG I carried a 1911... The second time I took it with a G19 after the lessons I learned the first time.
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Shooting to slide lock or not hints that you're asking the wrong questions. You shoot until your problem is gone, not until your pistol is in such and such a condition.

    Multiple targets? A burst here, a burst there, rinse, lather, repeat.

    "To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle

  5. #5
    CCO - brother - Your question is a good one, but I would say that while the question is a good one the answer is outside of the box the question is inside of - meaning this - if there are two guys I think the answer is that which ever one you decide to shoot first you shoot that guy to the ground and incapacitate him - that might take 1 or 4 or 18 rounds - who knows? Round count doesn’t matter because if you don’t put the first guy down and move (prematurely) to the second guy the first guy is going to shoot you. So I am with Sam on this.

    I believe it was Miyamoto Mushashi (but I might have this wrong) that explained that if you have to fight five guys you are NOT fighting 5 guys - you are fighting one guy at time for 5 times - this is how you can win - because you are unlikely to win a fight where you are attacking 5 guys at once. He said you need to position yourself so that you only have to deal with one guy at a time (They can’t attack through one another - this is true for a sword or a bullet) - so move so that you are not surrounded and then deal with them one at a time (quickly - but still one at a time).

    Another thing to consider is that if you are willing to die - if you are that committed to your decision to fight - then this will aide you greatly in overcoming what you are facing. So - while none of us wants to die - we probably need to face up to that possibility well before the action so that when it comes we are not thinking “Oh my God - If I get killed I will be leaving my family broke and abandoned - I need to live” - and instead we are thinking “My life insurance is paid up....I told my wife I love her....I told my kids I am proud of them.... I am ready to go to heaven today - right now”.

    Interestingly - I believe this attitude is conducive to a calmness that allows you function much more efficiently and greatly increases your chances of living through the encounter. I am NOT saying I have mastered this - I am saying that it is something we need to consider - an area in which we need to strengthen ourselves.

    Just stirring the fire by the way - because I understand there is an equally sound arguement to be made for - Give each of them a quick 3 shots and then sweep back over the carnage and re-engage as necessary.

    I’ll be following this thread as well - curious to see what our brothers think.

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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    These are pistol rounds, not death rays. Put multiple rounds on each as the opportunity arises.
    Keep moving. Change up the angles.
    You will shoot to slidelock if the engagement is prolonged. Train for this.
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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    You shoot until you get the job done. Might be one round, might be 15. You started shooting to stop someone from doing something, and you stay shooting till they stop.
    I rather you hated me for who I am than love me for who I ain't!
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Beyond The Wall

    Like this.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #9
    Going with Papa's answer. Assuming you see both threats, put rounds on target 1 that is currently engaging you until you see a result that works for you, then engage 2. To me "stop" means stops engaging me in your scenario, that allows me to move on to 2 and "stop" him. Then reassess.

    In the video, there appears to be only one threat actively engaging, so he gets pummeled as required.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2006
    If you use RMR sighted weapons, the old mocambique drill should work fine, two in body and one head and going on to the next, or if not just shoot until that threat goes away even if you go to slide lock. Remember there is no reason that you have to remain stationery in place either.
    Mocambique Drill
    According to anecdotal history, the technique originated with a Rhodesian soldier, Mike Rousseau, engaged in the Mozambican War of Independence (1964-1974). Fighting at the airport at Lourenšo Marques (modern-day Maputo), Rousseau rounded a corner and encountered a FRELIMO guerrilla, armed with an AK-47 assault rifle, at 10 paces (~7.5 meters). Rousseau immediately brought up his Browning HP35 pistol and performed a double tap maneuver, a controlled shooting technique in which the shooter makes two quick shots, to the target's torso. Rousseau hit the target on either side of the sternum, usually enough to incapacitate or kill outright. Seeing that the guerrilla was still advancing, Rousseau attempted a head shot that hit the guerrilla through the base of his neck, severing the spinal cord. Rousseau related the story to an acquaintance, small arms expert Jeff Cooper, founder of the Gunsite Academy shooting school, who incorporated the "Mozambique Drill" into his modern technique shooting method.[1][5][7][8]
    The Mozambique Drill was incorporated in the Gunsite curriculum from the late 1970s. In 1980, two Los Angeles Police Department SWAT officers, Larry Mudgett and John Helms, attended pistol training at Gunsite and received permission from Cooper to teach the technique to the LAPD, and to rename it the Failure Drill (concerned that "Mozambique" might have racist overtones).[5]
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
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