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  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    627
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms23dad View Post

    I realize you mentioned the RMR gun shot better, so we know mechanically you have the ability to press shots off without moving the gun out of alignment. I would tend to think you're not acquire a consistent sight picture, you're chasing your shots, or your need to try placing a hard focus on your front sight.

    Lastly, sometimes we just have off days and need to accept that. I've had to learn to leave the range when I can't put things together. A bad practice session is bad practice.

    I think it may be some of the consistent sight picture and some “off day.” Also, I used to shoot all the time and I think I’m just being pissy and overthinking the suppressor sights. It shouldn’t have taken me that many rounds to figure it out you know?



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    Chris

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    NW Washington
    Posts
    3,054
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopherloaf View Post
    I dry fire literally every day. My main problem was I’m just not used to suppressor sights. Never used them before now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Unfortunately dry fire isn't everything, and if you're not getting some regular live fire in, your shooting will be a little rusty. If you really want to shoot well, you have to put in the practice and apply the basics correctly, there's no way around that; you cannot maintain a high level of proficiency in pistol shooting with dry fire only.

    Sounds to me like you're thinking too hard about the sight picture. Forget the sight picture, focus on that trigger break and your grip. Bad trigger control overrides all the effort you put in to that sight picture, so get that right first. Small changes in your grip and body structure can make big changes to POI, so get that right and consistent too. Sight picture comes after those things and is of far less importance.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    627
    You’re right.

    Also, I’m a classic over-thinker.


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    Chris

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    410
    Trigger jerk is given way to much credit for missed shots.
    We're only talking 10 yards here.... again slow fire shooting accuracy isn't effected by grip. Yes grip needs to be an area of focus when building skill but grip isn't going to cause a missed shot. Ever see anyone or have you ever shot a pistol while it's upside down in your hand and press the trigger with your pinky finger? Tell me that grip is proper... and yet hits are made.

    He's moving the gun or isn't repeating the needed sight picture. It's that simple.
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    “Adversity introduces a man to himself.”

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,086
    I've been carrying/shooting a 9MM more than ever the last 3 or 4 years. I shoot pretty good groups with my CZ's. I feel good about them. I think I got complacent. How? Grip.

    I recently bought a new .45 acp. I used to carry/shoot my 1911's. It was all I carried and shot them a lot. Only full power loads. I don't go in for the reduced power loads for practice/range use.

    Anyway, back to the sad tale.

    I got a new .45 acp (XD .45 acp, 5" Tactical). Been to the range with it 3 times. Learned something. I wasn't holding the pistol in a good, solid, tight, grip. I found myself letting my hand/fingers relax - too much (is there a much, let alone too much?) My groups tightened up when I paid more attention to firing every shot with a nice tight/firm grip on the pistol.

    I can't help but wonder if shooting the lighter recoiling 9MM pistols contributed, over time, to me not keeping as firm a grip as I should be.

    I had a similar issue a year or so back with the P07 in .40 S&W on a day so hot/humid I could not keep my hands/fingers dry. I always considered the gripping surfaces of the P07 to be just fine, till that day. That pistol, with those hard recoiling 135 grain hollow point loads and all that slippery sweat was moving that pistol around so much in my hand I had to regrip the pistol every 2 or 3 shots. My shirt was too wet to keep my hands dried off with and my pants soon got wet (I sweat like a pig). I came home cleaned my pistols and ordered a set of adhesive backed grip panels for the P07 for the next time I shoot on a day like that. I know letting the pistol move in your hand affects the groups.

    I'll keep shooting the new XD and keep forcing myself to maintain my grip. I think it reminded me of a fundamental I'd let slip away while shooting the much lighter recoiling 9's.

    Suppressor sights? I just use the same sight alignment as with standard sights. I don't even realize they are taller unless I'm looking at the pistol lying on a bench or when I'm cleaning it. The focus is on sight alignment, whether short or tall.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    NW Washington
    Posts
    3,054
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms23dad View Post
    Trigger jerk is given way to much credit for missed shots.
    We're only talking 10 yards here.... again slow fire shooting accuracy isn't effected by grip. Yes grip needs to be an area of focus when building skill but grip isn't going to cause a missed shot. Ever see anyone or have you ever shot a pistol while it's upside down in your hand and press the trigger with your pinky finger? Tell me that grip is proper... and yet hits are made.

    He's moving the gun or isn't repeating the needed sight picture. It's that simple.
    Perhaps you're talking about just making hits on a silhouette target, while I'm talking about hitting a specific point on the target. Grip absolutely affects POI and precision, and poor trigger control can cause a lot more error than just sloppy sight alignment. Both of those are easily provable with some live fire.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    410
    I understand what your saying. I don't think we dissagree. But slow fire face sized groups at 10yds probably isn't due to a poor trigger press or grip.
    A lot of times jerking the trigger isn't jerking the trigger. It's flinching while jerking the trigger. Not the same thing and yet we are told trigger jerk is the cause of poor shooting where as I belive the flinch is the issue. Or a tightening of the grip while pressing the trigger.
    Once the gun is aligned all that's needed for a hit is pressing the trigger without moving the gun. That movement can be caused by any number of things, I feel the least of which is trigger press. I'd wager a number of guys here could basicly rapid fire a head sized group at 10yds. In that case grip is a huge part of pulling that off, trigger press matters but it's going to be sloppy at speed. The old adage "Nothing is everything but everything is something " probably applies.
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    “Adversity introduces a man to himself.”

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    410
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopherloaf View Post
    After the discussion about the fantastic Suarez barrels, I got to thinking about my range trip last week and just sort of got down on myself about it to be honest.

    They're excuses really but, I just didn't have good groupings until I shot my buddy's RMR and to me, right this second, that's unacceptable.

    The guns: G17s both, one with a Suarez slide, black on black Suarez suppressor sights, and rose gold striker and extreme reliability extractor depressor and an OEM barrel. The second I have a gifted to me Brownells RMR slide, OEM internals, OEM barrel, Tru-Glo black on black suppressor sights. Suarez flat face shooter triggers with the polished bar from the online store in both and I was just awful.

    My groups started everywhere and for the first few magazines, I was all over the paper. My buddy helped remind me to breathe and that brought my groupings to about face sized at 7 and 10 yards both. I fussed and fussed but I think I'm just making excuses. Finally, after about 200 or so rounds, I brought my groupings to about fist size but for the life of me I couldn't make a ragged hole if I wanted to without the red dot. Am I over thinking? Should I go to standard height sights until I get an optic? I did better with my buddy's standard height sights on his second gun but again, I feel like that's an excuse. I just don't like mediocrity.


    Thoughts?
    Getting back to the original post, he mentions he shot better with the RMR. From here is the context of my posts. "I brought my groupings to about fist size but for the life of me I couldn't make a ragged hole if I wanted to without the red dot." He has the mechanics in place to shoot well. Telling him it's trigger press and grip I feel is inaccurate.
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    “Adversity introduces a man to himself.”

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,522
    Without actually watching you shoot I'd say it's probably 2 things.

    1) consistency, if you're all over the place something in the process is changing constantly, grip, position, sight pic, sight alignment, visual focus, trigger, breathing. As long as you're consistent it's easily identified as to what you're doing and how to mitigate it.

    2) In your own head, inconsistency can be caused by getting in your own head. A couple of classes ago one of the students got in his own head space after day 2 hitting 100m on demand went into day 3 struggling to hit at 75. Settle your mind, you're probably over thinking each shot and adjusting different things, even marginally, between each shot. This leads to inconsistency with inconsistent feedback from your hits on target, which leads you to adjust more, which causes worse feedback.
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