Results 1 to 4 of 4
  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,570

    Default MAGAZINES ON SHOTGUNS

    THE TRUTH ABOUT THE REMINGTOM 870 DM

    Friday, December 15, 2017


    When I first saw this, I must admit I rolled my eyes and shook my head. I admit to having had a love affair with the Saiga 12 some years ago. The detachable box magazine was very attractive, and well, sexy. Images of speedy reloads by a stripped shirted Spetsnaz operator with a Ziganov cigarette perched on his lower lip flashed in the mind. But as we worked through various shotgun drills, real world drills based on the experiences we and our students had in real gunfights killing real bad guys that were trying to return the favor, we realized that the detachable box mag on a shotgun was not all that great.

    First we ask what the shotgun is intended for. The use of the shotgun does not require shooting it empty and then racing to load it. It is not a sustained fire weapon, like the rifle. Itis fired once or twice, and the reloaded as needed. To see the real use of a shotgun in combat, we need to look to US Law Enforcement, not US Gun Competitors whose sport demands speed of reloading.

    In a street fight, the shotgun is fired once or twice...perhaps three times, and then it is reloaded with single rounds. Not as sexy as what Remington suggests, but its the way its done. The way Remington is marketing this is by comparing the full reload of an empty tube fed 870, to the full reload of a magazine fed 870. Very clever on their part but absolutely irrelevant.

    Instead, lets compare times to the first shot from empty guns on each side. My money is on the chamber load of the tube fed weapon, followed by the tube load (and subsequent racking of the action) of the tube fed weapon in speed over the magazine fed model. Moreover, if we accept that the way shotguns are used in real life is by a "load what you shoot" methodology - in other words, load what you have shot as soon as you have the chance - the tube fed weapon is far easier to keep loaded than the magazine fed weapon.

    Not to mention the carry of additional ammunition is far easier with the tube fed methodology of a belt mounted ammo sleeve, a side saddle, or even a handful of shells in the jacket pocket.

    Remington will sell many of these to those who don't know. And they may not ever know the difference of what a combat shotgun can or should be. That's fine.

    Will I ever sell a Tac-14 with a detachable magazine? Sure...I am a capitalist. But I will keep doing what I am doing, teaching what I am teaching and using the old fashioned 870s I have on hand. The DM models are not an advancement at all, and actually make the shotgun more difficult to use in the realm where shotguns are really used. I have no interest in the DM models for the 870 and believe they solve no problems at all, but they certainly create more drama for the user.

    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,233
    Have a fair amount of experience with detachable mag rifles and carbines. Have examined, held, but not fired the new detachable mag shotguns.

    If you place a tube fed rifle or shotgun on a table next to its box-fed counterpart, zombie apocalypse and "Charlie's in the wire!" aside, I'll pick up the tube-fed gun every time.

    It has to do with handling, efficiency, ergonomics and experience. Nothing old-fashioned about a Tac14, a V3 or, for that matter, a Marlin Guide Gun.

    A long, projecting magazine is a pain in the ass in CQB or prone, which is why they still make 20 round AR mags.
    Last edited by Papa; 11-06-2018 at 09:47 AM.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    2, 0, 10. And a wakeup.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,570
    I gotta say that I am rapidly getting to the "I don't care about it" point. I know what works best in a real fight versus a video game where zombies are the adversaries. But so many people never read a thing and make choices based on emotions that if someone wants to use a slug - loaded drum fed shockwave with a mil dot scope on it, I will just shrug, know in my heart they are stupid idiots, and move on.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,233
    Remember that reading or watching videos won't get it done. As an old judge told me over 40 years ago,

    "You have to put the flesh on the bones of the corpus delicti."

    He was talking about bringing a case to life for the jury.

    Lessons here have to be learned in the flesh as well.

    I am not speaking of, or to, those who never leave the basement except to reload at the fridge.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    2, 0, 10. And a wakeup.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •