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  1. #1
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    Default MAGAZINES ON SHOTGUNS

    THE TRUTH ABOUT THE REMINGTOM 870 DM

    Friday, December 15, 2017


    When I first saw this, I must admit I rolled my eyes and shook my head. I admit to having had a love affair with the Saiga 12 some years ago. The detachable box magazine was very attractive, and well, sexy. Images of speedy reloads by a stripped shirted Spetsnaz operator with a Ziganov cigarette perched on his lower lip flashed in the mind. But as we worked through various shotgun drills, real world drills based on the experiences we and our students had in real gunfights killing real bad guys that were trying to return the favor, we realized that the detachable box mag on a shotgun was not all that great.

    First we ask what the shotgun is intended for. The use of the shotgun does not require shooting it empty and then racing to load it. It is not a sustained fire weapon, like the rifle. Itis fired once or twice, and the reloaded as needed. To see the real use of a shotgun in combat, we need to look to US Law Enforcement, not US Gun Competitors whose sport demands speed of reloading.

    In a street fight, the shotgun is fired once or twice...perhaps three times, and then it is reloaded with single rounds. Not as sexy as what Remington suggests, but its the way its done. The way Remington is marketing this is by comparing the full reload of an empty tube fed 870, to the full reload of a magazine fed 870. Very clever on their part but absolutely irrelevant.

    Instead, lets compare times to the first shot from empty guns on each side. My money is on the chamber load of the tube fed weapon, followed by the tube load (and subsequent racking of the action) of the tube fed weapon in speed over the magazine fed model. Moreover, if we accept that the way shotguns are used in real life is by a "load what you shoot" methodology - in other words, load what you have shot as soon as you have the chance - the tube fed weapon is far easier to keep loaded than the magazine fed weapon.

    Not to mention the carry of additional ammunition is far easier with the tube fed methodology of a belt mounted ammo sleeve, a side saddle, or even a handful of shells in the jacket pocket.

    Remington will sell many of these to those who don't know. And they may not ever know the difference of what a combat shotgun can or should be. That's fine.

    Will I ever sell a Tac-14 with a detachable magazine? Sure...I am a capitalist. But I will keep doing what I am doing, teaching what I am teaching and using the old fashioned 870s I have on hand. The DM models are not an advancement at all, and actually make the shotgun more difficult to use in the realm where shotguns are really used. I have no interest in the DM models for the 870 and believe they solve no problems at all, but they certainly create more drama for the user.

    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
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    Have a fair amount of experience with detachable mag rifles and carbines. Have examined, held, but not fired the new detachable mag shotguns.

    If you place a tube fed rifle or shotgun on a table next to its box-fed counterpart, zombie apocalypse and "Charlie's in the wire!" aside, I'll pick up the tube-fed gun every time.

    It has to do with handling, efficiency, ergonomics and experience. Nothing old-fashioned about a Tac14, a V3 or, for that matter, a Marlin Guide Gun.

    A long, projecting magazine is a pain in the ass in CQB or prone, which is why they still make 20 round AR mags.
    Last edited by Papa; 11-06-2018 at 08:47 AM.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 5, 15. And a wakeup.

  3. #3
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    I gotta say that I am rapidly getting to the "I don't care about it" point. I know what works best in a real fight versus a video game where zombies are the adversaries. But so many people never read a thing and make choices based on emotions that if someone wants to use a slug - loaded drum fed shockwave with a mil dot scope on it, I will just shrug, know in my heart they are stupid idiots, and move on.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #4
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    Remember that reading or watching videos won't get it done. As an old judge told me over 40 years ago,

    "You have to put the flesh on the bones of the corpus delicti."

    He was talking about bringing a case to life for the jury.

    Lessons here have to be learned in the flesh as well.

    I am not speaking of, or to, those who never leave the basement except to reload at the fridge.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 5, 15. And a wakeup.

  5. #5
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    Again...for those who either missed it or whose long term memory has lapsed
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
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    I think the idea is cool but there is a tremendous amount of bulk of magazines that really don’t make it any easier. I imagine this was the exact same thing people talked about moving from a repeater to a magazine fed rifle. I like the idea of topping off the magazine tube, but I am more simple then most....

  7. #7
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    ....and of course theres the issue of plastic shells deforming in a magazine under spring pressure. Im pretty sure that's why the Russians produced steel case shells for the Saigas and Veprs….

    Just an historical note--back during the early years of VietNam when we were still using the M14, the Army requested input on a new combat shotgun. Winchester submitted a version of their pump shotgun (model 1200?) which had been fitted to use box magazines. The mags held 5 rounds and were roughly the size of M14 mags. They designed the stock to "feel" like a M14 stock, even changing the safety (and mag release) to the M14 type. It was a great concept; but not fully refined prior to the test date and ultimately failed because of reliability issues. In THAT role, as a combat shotgun for the jungles of VietNam, I think the concept had merit, especially when fitted to feel like the standard fighting rifle.
    Last edited by EDELWEISS; 03-06-2019 at 05:26 PM.

  8. #8
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    Two Saigas waiting for the collector value to go even higher. Tube fed 870s for my go to shottys. I bought full length brass casings to reload for the Saigas. They work. You could use plastic if the first mag round was brass. I have one drum; it is not a bet your life mag.

    Box mag shottys are a solution looking for a problem.

    Choirboy

  9. #9
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    The whole reason the Stakeout form factor is so attractive is because it is small and mobile, and thus you're much more likely to have it with you when you need it, and you'll be able to make use of its maneuverability in tight or crowded situations.

    The big, clunky magazine dangling off of the gun pretty much negates every one of these advantages.
    Last edited by TFA303; 03-07-2019 at 05:55 AM. Reason: spelling
    Armed Puritan

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by choirboy View Post
    Two Saigas waiting for the collector value to go even higher....
    You may be waiting awhile. The Chinese Lynx is a saiga clone and sells for under $500.

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