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  1. #11
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    Think, Move, Shoot, in that order. Counter-attack, or the actual application of force on your opponent occurs “when appropriate”. I say it this way specifically as you have to make that decision. Movement is paramount, counter attack is secondary, I don’t want to botch my draw stroke or drop my weapon because I’m rushing. To quote Wyatt Earp “taking your time in a hurry” you have to practice this while moving dynamically until you figure out how/when is best for you to access your weapon and bring it to bare on the enemy.
    Perhaps this might something for a related thread.
    Perhaps some discussion for when your counterattack does not include a gun because you do not have one.
    The type of counter-attack that you are capable of making is important relative to your flanking movements. If you have a gun you do not have to be within contact distance to attack. If your weapons are a short knife, or your fists you have to be closer.
    Do you also want to be able to control the opponent's ability to use the gun?
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    Perhaps this might something for a related thread.
    Perhaps some discussion for when your counterattack does not include a gun because you do not have one.
    The type of counter-attack that you are capable of making is important relative to your flanking movements. If you have a gun you do not have to be within contact distance to attack. If your weapons are a short knife, or your fists you have to be closer.
    Do you also want to be able to control the opponent's ability to use the gun?
    The matrix remains the same without regard to it being a hand problem or a gun problem. If I'm too close, armed or not, I get off line (flank), and counter attack. This could be attacking the person or his weapon with my hands or with a weapon. The flank improves your position, compromises theirs, and resets their OODA loop. The counter comes during or immediately after the move to flank. If they have a gun, I'm attacking it first to gain control of the muzzle and may effect what angle I use when I flank.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  3. #13
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    Apr 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    1. Too much talking while the BG stalls, about 40 seconds worth. It looks for a nanosecond as though he is considering a physical attack before the turn, when his eyes go down.
    2. Stowing the gun in a bush is worth remembering. Also, when the perp turns away his hands are at waist level and invisible to the deputy.
    3. God was watching out for this deputy--looked like he was not properly behind cover when the first shot broke, and though he did turn and run forwards instead of backpedaling, he's not really off the X, just creating distance until he buttonhooks. Diagonal lines, anyone?
    But he did think, move and shoot. And he did call out to his partner when the perp turned. And to his partner's credit, he responds quickly, if ineptly.
    4. His partner provides distraction, and that helps a lot here. It allows Deputy #1 to steady down, take aim carefully, and put the perp down. But:
    5. Drop the f****** pen and paperwork! One handed shooting at extended range with a pen trapped in your grip--I'm guessing he got no hits. We can train for this easily with blue guns and various props: just let them go as you access your sidearm. Gravity usually accounts for the rest. This is another area where preparation, or lack of same, was crucial. He did engage, and that helped for sure.

    Note that the perp, drunk or high, is still advancing toward the first deputy while #2 is engaging him.

    There's a lot more here to discuss in light of Greg's OP.

    Did these guys manage the fight, or just enjoy a fortuitous outcome?

    And what if Ken is not onscene?
    On dropping pens and paperwork,

    It’s common to hang on to stuff when your OODA Loop is reset. For cops, your flashlight, pen, and notebook are in your hands way more often than your sidearm.

    This is something my agency drills on pretty frequently because it’s certainly an issue, and not something you necessarily think about when shit hits the fan. Personally for me, I have it pretty ingrained to throw whatever is in my hand towards the target before drawing and firing.


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  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    Sorry, I was looking for a relevant thread instead of posting the video by itself and I thought this one was appropriate. I thought the relevance would be obvious so I didn't take the time to elaborate, but I can clarify.

    From the video's description on YouTube:

    A 21-year-old man fatally shot by Las Vegas police officers last week may have been impaired and grabbed a gun before pointing and firing it at officers in an apparent suicide-by-cop incident captured on police body camera footage, authorities said Monday. The incident happened following a three-car collision at Rainbow Boulevard and Gary Avenue just after 7 a.m. on Oct. 10, Las Vegas Metro Police Asst. Sheriff Tim Kelly said. When LVMPD traffic Officer Kenneth Pillette and Officer Chad Betts arrived, two of the drivers said the third driver, suspect 21-year-old Kenneth Busse, appeared to be impaired. When Busse was asked by Betts to take a field sobriety test, Busse refused, run to a nearby bush and picked up a firearm he left there prior to officers arriving on the scene, Kelly said.

    Busse pointed the gun at Betts and fired a round at the officer, which jammed in the chamber, preventing him from firing more shots, Kelly said. Pillette, a 20-year veteran of the department, and Betts, a 19-year officer, fired a total of six return shots at Busse, striking Busse in the chest. Busse was pronounced dead at the scene. Kelly said further investigation showed Busse was suicidal, had made suicidal comments in the past and exhibited suicidal signs on the day of the shooting. The shooting was the 20th officer involved shooting for LVMPD in 2018 and the 10th fatal shooting incident.
    If you notice how long it took after he picked up the gun to fire a shot, it seems to confirm the suicide element. So when I saw that officer turn his back and run for cover, I would say that there's a good chance that the only reason he's alive today is because the guy wasn't really trying to kill anybody. If the bad guy had malicious and murderous intent, he would have been dumping rounds into that officer's back long before he reached the vehicle.

    What I saw was a perfect opportunity to do what we learned in FoF--explode off the X in the 10-11 o'clock direction while drawing with the primary hand, full extension in the direction of the target, and filling the guy's face with bullets. It was surprising how easy it was to do at that range without aiming in the drills. There probably wasn't any background to worry about as a bonus.

    I'm sure this officer never had such training so, as Papa pointed out, I suppose turning and running was at least a better response than what we've seen in other videos (backpedaling while drawing and firing).

    I just thought it was a perfect example of what not to do, and how what is being taught and discussed here would have been so much more effective.

    I'll post the video again for cohesiveness:

    Last edited by mike135; 10-24-2018 at 11:35 AM.

  5. #15
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    MINE IN BOLD

    No worries Mike...when you aren't sure, just start a new thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike135 View Post
    So when I saw that officer turn his back and run for cover, I would say that there's a good chance that the only reason he's alive today is because the guy wasn't really trying to kill anybody. If the bad guy had malicious and murderous intent, he would have been dumping rounds into that officer's back long before he reached the vehicle.

    Agreed. The bad guy was a fool and the cop had never come to terms with killing anyone. Perfect storm of luck. As my SWAT dad used to say, "Fortuitous Outcomes Reinforce Poor tactics".


    What I saw was a perfect opportunity to do what we learned in FoF--explode off the X in the 10-11 o'clock direction while drawing with the primary hand, full extension in the direction of the target, and filling the guy's face with bullets. It was surprising how easy it was to do at that range without aiming in the drills. There probably wasn't any background to worry about as a bonus.

    The bad guy's indecision placed him in a position where the officer could easily have started and ended the fight without any need to move from where he was.

    I'm sure this officer never had such training so, as Papa pointed out, I suppose turning and running was at least a better response than what we've seen in other videos (backpedaling while drawing and firing).

    LE is just like any other group of people. There are aggressive meat eaters, there are complacent day-to-day worker bees, and there are some so incapable of anything but self-promotion as to be totally worthless for anything more than photographs.
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  6. #16


    Today, this video (relating to how to "fight") appeared in my inbox. Before the F on F class last weekend, I would have thought it made sense. But now, I understand that this instructor is not getting of the x OR flanking. Mostly he is going 6-12 and blocking.

  7. #17
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    More On The Video - My Opinions

    I know that I worked in the dark ages but what I see is a failure to control the suspect.

    Was the suspect as "suspect" or not? If he was, why wasn't he secured first...a pat down if nothing else. As well, they knew something had been placed in the bushes...why didn't they secure that item first? When somebody told me a "suspect" had hidden an item, I always assumed it was a weapon until proven otherwise. Everything is a gunfight until proven otherwise. Looks like this was the last thing on their minds. They arrived not in tactical mode, but in admin mode.

    Both officers should be dedicated to the suspect before any admin function happens.

    Note that the first officer was CLOSER to the bad guy than to his car. They will use this event to illustrate the importance of cover even though cover was really irrelevant in this event.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #18
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    More On The Video - My Opinions

    I know that I worked in the dark ages but what I see is a failure to control the suspect.

    Was the suspect as "suspect" or not? If he was, why wasn't he secured first...a pat down if nothing else. As well, they knew something had been placed in the bushes...why didn't they secure that item first? When somebody told me a "suspect" had hidden an item, I always assumed it was a weapon until proven otherwise. Everything is a gunfight until proven otherwise. Looks like this was the last thing on their minds. They arrived not in tactical mode, but in admin mode.

    Both officers should be dedicated to the suspect before any admin function happens.

    Note that the first officer was CLOSER to the bad guy than to his car. They will use this event to illustrate the importance of cover even though cover was really irrelevant in this event.
    Exactly. I see this as a failure to manage all 3 aspects of the battlefield prior to the fight.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

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