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  1. #1

    Default Detachable Box-Magazine Shotguns

    Last edited by Nabalfodrows; 10-19-2018 at 06:19 AM.
    James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

  2. #2
    LETHALITY


    Being shot center in the chest with ANY buckshot all but guarantees a kill so ballistic discussions of one being better than another at terminal ballistics with this ammo are kind of a waste of time.


    Couldn't agree more.





    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b7a_1519440723
    James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

  3. #3
    SUSTAINED FIRE


    The VEPR feeds from a detachable box magazine and can go up to 25 rounds. The 10 round mags have worked better than anything I've seen yet, but still. It can be reloaded as fast as any M4 platform.





    The Pointman has a 5+1 capacity and will need to be single-fed/emergency reloaded in order to continue sustaining fire past tube capacity. It is slower in comparison to the VEPR.











    The Pointman or Stakeout will need to be proactively reloaded in order to be used properly.








    They both can do it, but the VEPR is much faster.
    James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

  4. #4
    AVAILABILITY OF GUN/PARTS


    The VEPR is a foreign import and subject to regulation, may not be available later, parts are proprietary, and magazines are darn expensive. Good mags for the VEPR and Saiga are being made here (CSSpecs), but it doesn't matter if you can't get the gun. If production actually happened in the US by reputable manufacturers, I might think differently.


    The 870 has been around since 1950 and more than 10 million have been produced and more are being cranked out daily. Made in the US, no import issues.


    ONE-HANDED MANIPULATION


    The VEPR is easily used one-handed. The Pointman...not so much. Fact of the matter is, I am more likely to switch to my pistol than continue with my shotgun in the even my other arm is disabled.



    RELIABILITY AND MALFUNCTION CLEARANCE


    I haven't had many malfunctions with the VEPR, but most are extraction issues and I have had to drop the mag *almost* every time to clear the malfunction. I am still able to use the rest of my mag. Duds can be quickly cycled out. I see this as a non-issue between the two.





    I will say I've had more issues with my VEPR in 500 rounds than I have had with any pump, and most of the pump was user error (short stroke).


    In any case, the reliability of the pump cannot be questioned.
    James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

  5. #5
    LIGHTS


    The VEPR has no pump which make lights arguably easier to use and mount, but the Surefire forend practically nullifies that issue.


    PORTABILITY/CONCEALABILITY


    Unfortunately, the VEPR is not offered in a non-NFA firearm form. The only two I know of are the Chinese Saiga imports (low quality) and the Fostech SBV (wayyyyy too expensive). So you are stuck with a folding-stock VEPR w/ an 18” barrel – good luck concealing that outside of paying the extortion fee of $200.


    It is a hefty guy at a little over 10 pounds loaded (10 round mag). My Shockwave 590 Pointman-esque shotgun weighs in a 7.5 pounds loaded with 5+1 in the tube, and my Covert 12 weighs just under 7 pounds with 2+1. The Pointman and Covert are slim, sleek, and maneuverable.


    While the VEPR weighs more and is thicker than both the Covert and Pointman, it is not unwieldy. It moves/points naturally, and has a much higher capacity.


    That said:


    1). They need to be compact and concealable. Covered

    James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

  6. #6
    SLUGS


    The primary use of the shotgun is for buckshot. Slug select drills, while they are rare-ish, have their purpose. On that note, here is an excerpt from Greg Nichols:


    "I don’t consider a slug the really be antipersonnel ammunition as much as I consider it antimaterial, and this ghost loading business I think is just a flash move to show coolness factor. In the time it takes a trained person to ghost load a slug and make a precision shot I can transition to pistol and make the same shot and be back on the boom stick. Now back to slugs, these are a great option for shooting through walls and other semipermeable cover like vehicle skins and glass. My recommendation here is that 3-5 of these be carried but not loaded when running a shotgun."


    The VEPR is not to be run as a rifle. Its primary use is as a shotgun. That said, sometimes you may need to run slugs. Doing a slug-select drill is not so easily done with a VEPR and requires using either a magazine filled with slugs or a mag with a single slug (or 2) w/ the rest being buckshot. You may have to toss your buckshot mag in order to quickly use the slug mags.





    James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

  7. #7
    IN CLOSING


    The VEPR and other magazine fed shotguns really only serve one purpose outside of competitions: overwhelming and immediate firepower of buckshot to fight multiple adversaries.


    Like any weapon, the shotgun is great when used properly and in the right environment. The same can be said for a tuned VEPR 12. I believe that the Saiga 12, the Mossberg 590M, and the Turkish 1919s do not hold a candle to the VEPR.


    If you have the funds to make your mag fed run right, the strength necessary to actually wield it, and understand the super small niche the platform is supposed to be used for, you could maybe consider it.

    shotgun.png

    Video credit goes to: Gabe Suarez, https://www.youtube.com/user/SinistralRifleman/videos and https://www.youtube.com/user/PolenarTactical/videos
    James 1:5 - "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Nice research...so some points from me.

    Primarily the shotgun is NOT a sustained fire weapon. There is a temptation to compare it to a rifle but that is a mistake as the rifle has a different mission. Shotguns are not used in infantry assaults. They are used in close quarters combat, usually inside or at least inside close distances. My longest was at 15 yards for example. And the most number of shots necessary in one fight was less than a full tube. So to compare reloading speed is really not a relevant matter with shotguns once you leave the sport shooting realm. In fact, making an issue of reloading speed would be the same as comparing accuracy between a slug equipped weapon and a bolt action 308 at 200 yards.

    Short duration
    Limited distance
    Multiple enemies
    Reduced light

    These are the characteristics of a real world shotgun gunfight. The shotgun is the best tool to take to a pistol fight. While we may debate the value of semi auto versus manual actions, the magazine fed issue, to me, is a non-issue.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #9
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    I know its already been blasted; but I'll be interested to see how the Tac-13 compares with the Stakeout/Vepr debate. Its still tube fed, so it has all the pros and cons of that design, and its semi auto so it hits all those highs and lows too.

  10. #10
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    I see no "CONS" at all to a tube fed shotgun unless the objective is ballistic masturbation while wearing a bright colored spandex shirt. The issue of semi vs manual is up for debate as long as...and this is a big one...reliability remains 100% which is yet to be determined.

    Anything a VEPR can do in a real fight, the 870 can do. The V3 Tac-13? We wll see eventually...I predict the advantage will be slight and the requirement to maintain reliability will be high...I could be wrong.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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