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  1. #11
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by geronimo455 View Post
    The AR and the 5.56 cartridge have set unrealistic expectations for all semi-autos. People with little other semi-auto experience (maybe a Ruger 10/22 at most) figure they can use the shotgun the same way, at the same cadence - it's not happening, there is a recovery period for heavier cartridges which make the manual action vs semi-auto action argument much less important.
    It's almost like someone published a video on just that... Oh ya Brent and I did.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
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    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    174
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    My problem is not so much the magazine. It’s more “what is the point of the system?”

    What does it give you that a tube fed shotgun does not? More shells on board is nice but outside of sweeping trenches...

    For me, I would only consider a box-fed gun in an SBS configuration...something as short as mechanically possible.

    Greg and I were talking about this last weekend. He raised a good point – the only application he saw was a short-barreled shotgun for law-enforcement with a magazine of non-lethal and a magazine of lethal rounds for dealing with riots. I tend to agree.
    Mixing lethal and non lethal in the same gun, especially mag fed, is a terrible idea, and will have fatal consequences sooner or later.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    5,413
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO View Post
    Mixing lethal and non lethal in the same gun, especially mag fed, is a terrible idea, and will have fatal consequences sooner or later.
    and so further begs the question, what is the point of the system?
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
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    174
    Quote Originally Posted by geronimo455 View Post
    The AR and the 5.56 cartridge have set unrealistic expectations for all semi-autos. People with little other semi-auto experience (maybe a Ruger 10/22 at most) figure they can use the shotgun the same way, at the same cadence - it's not happening, there is a recovery period for heavier cartridges which make the manual action vs semi-auto action argument much less important.
    Semi-auto shotguns are very reliable nowadays and remove potential for short stroking the weapon. Also, if you control them well, they are faster on the followup for all but a few rare individuals. My sights dont really leave 2/3 IPSC targets under recoil out to about 15 yards, much less across the livingroom. Just apply hate as fast as my wee finger can go...

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    174
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    and so further begs the question, what is the point of the system?
    There is none, outside of gaming or "because fun", in my opinion. I was simply stating that even that application with lethal and nonlethal rounds used in the same gun, was a very bad idea.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    44,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
    and so further begs the question, what is the point of the system?
    It seems these days that very few people actually care about application in the real world for shooting people. The goal seems to be to get something different, contrary, and complicated...and if it goes against established ideas...even better.

    I wrote already that if we took a historical study and gathered the dynamics of actual events where people killed other people in gunfights with shotguns...and turned them into drills that could done on the range, we would find that a tube fed pump action shotgun works marvelously. And while the semi auto may give an advantage (would be an interesting comparison I think), we would find that a magazine fed weapon, in this genre and application, would offer zero benefits.

    But as I said...it seems fewer and fewer people care at all about such things and the study of the flying side kick, the biceps peak, and the speed load takes up all their time.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    14,691
    flying side kick
    The Korean that I studied under loved that technique. I studied the shotokan system and Mr T. Mikame did not like jumping at all and would not teach such techniques. But, for publicity pictures would do one. He knew the technique very well, but considered it worthless as a practical technique.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    5,413
    Athletics and martial showmanship

    Nothing wrong with athletics, explosive movement and fitness is good. And nothing wrong with showmanship as far as marketing goes. The problem is when people think it is a real fighting technique.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Made it to Free America
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    13,287
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    It seems these days that very few people actually care about application in the real world for shooting people....

    I wrote already that if we took a historical study and gathered the dynamics of actual events where people killed other people in gunfights with shotguns...and turned them into drills that could done on the range, we would find that a tube fed pump action shotgun works marvelously. And while the semi auto may give an advantage (would be an interesting comparison I think), we would find that a magazine fed weapon, in this genre and application, would offer zero benefits...
    Now THAT would be interesting. A number of years ago I took a PD taught advanced shotgun course. As part of it we practiced the one armed reloading/firing of the Remington 870 by FBI Agent Miralles (?) from the Miami Shootout. It was a good technique to learn.

    In THAT incident a mag fed shotgun might have been a better option BUT ONLY if a cache of pre-loaded mags were readily available. Without pre loaded mags the mag fed shotgun is even less useful.

    The need to carry pre loaded mags is one of the drawbacks of the mag fed shotgun. How do you carry them? Where do you carry them? How many do you carry? What size/capacity? Five shot mags offer little improvement over a tube fed gun. Ten shot mags are comic book silly anything larger is worse and the drums even worse. Eight shot mags are about the largest that can be seriously carried, and that's no better than a 8 shot tube fed gun.

    Then theres the issue of plastic shells deforming if left loaded in mags. That's not an unheard of issue and one that was only really resolved by full metal shells; but the Russians felt it was necessary to make the Saiga guns really functional.
    Last edited by EDELWEISS; 10-23-2018 at 08:41 PM.

  10. #20
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    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    The Mireles event was a black swan. There will always be Black Swans that favor something. I would like to gather a study of evenrs and then set up drills depicting the 10 million White Swans.

    I have used a Rem 870 in battle more than any other current Shotgun Instructor I suspect. While a Benelli may have made me feel better, the truth of the matter is that it would not have made much, if any, difference. A magazine fed weapon even less.

    But nobody who will buy these cares what I think since they seem to know so much more from their gun games and video games.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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