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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Phoenix, Arizona
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    10,388
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO View Post
    Mixing lethal and non lethal in the same gun, especially mag fed, is a terrible idea, and will have fatal consequences sooner or later.
    In my mind when I thought of it I was thinking only transitioning from non-lethal to lethal not having a mix in the gun, and when upgrading to lethal you drop all non-lethal from the gun and your person.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
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    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,570
    Non-lethal has no place in the armory of a private citizen - lone operator.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,731
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    In my mind when I thought of it I was thinking only transitioning from non-lethal to lethal not having a mix in the gun, and when upgrading to lethal you drop all non-lethal from the gun and your person.
    And I looked at this like an exercise in finding an excuse for the platform. I have a open mind and even if I see no point to a given platform. I like to think on it because maybe there are things I don’t see or imagine, even if they are really niche scenarios.

    But we keep coming back to the same conclusions on this one.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

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  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    154
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Non-lethal has no place in the armory of a private citizen - lone operator.
    Legally speaking, does it even exist? I've always been told that if you are not employing non-lethal munitions from a shotgun in accordance with established agency policies, as an agent of said agency, that legally speaking you used lethal force, regardless of your stated intent and argument thereof. Especially pertinent when someone dies because you shot them in the head with the bean-bag or whatever other stupidity ensued.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    McKinney
    Posts
    1,605
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO View Post
    Legally speaking, does it even exist? I've always been told that if you are not employing non-lethal munitions from a shotgun in accordance with established agency policies, as an agent of said agency, that legally speaking you used lethal force, regardless of your stated intent and argument thereof. Especially pertinent when someone dies because you shot them in the head with the bean-bag or whatever other stupidity ensued.
    In the last few years I believe I’ve read that the term “non lethal” has been replaced with “less lethal” for exactly that reason. As such, justifying its use requires the same justification as lethal force.
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,233
    Unless a light, clean, durable, user friendly, and visually appealing (don't laugh, it's important) dual-feed shotgun comes along I'm unlikely to buy a box-fed.
    If I could throw a compact, staggered-feed box into an 870/1100/V3, drop it once empty, and then transition to what's in the underbarrel tube without a lot of monkey motion I'd be interested.
    And it needs to look and handle like a shotgun, not a Star Wars Lego blaster.

    I know, it can't be done.

    Not yet.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

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  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Made it to Free America
    Posts
    13,097
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The Mireles event was a black swan. There will always be Black Swans that favor something. I would like to gather a study of evenrs and then set up drills depicting the 10 million White Swans.....
    I suggested the Miami Incident because it was an incident that was discussed and I received training from my department. That being said I do think the idea for training/discussion of actual shootings is a good one.

    Im not sure there are any swans in real life, just incidents some equipment and training works to our expectations, some doesn't. I recall discussions where semi autos were hailed with the argument that pump guns would eventually be short stroked under pressure. Likewise some incidents will favor mag fed guns and others tube fed (and as I said a couple major issues with mag fed guns is having, storing, carrying a ready supply of pre loaded mags with ammo that doesn't deform in the mags).

    Im generally content with the 870 as a combat platform; but Im not willing to exclude the possibility of a better system. Just like the 38 snub nose revolver has largely been replaced as a self defense tool, there are clearly still times where it serves better than any other tool. Back in the revolver days it would have been a mistake to refuse to examine semiauto pistols because they "worked", when maybe they "worked" because it was all we had. I cant imagine any real world situation where Id (ME) want to carry a mag fed shotgun (and this comes from a guy who really wanted to love a Vepr 12). The drawbacks for me are just two many to overcome; but I keep hoping for a better option....and those better options are why I come to WT
    Last edited by EDELWEISS; 10-25-2018 at 06:50 AM.

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