Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 30 of 30
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    TX has some property laws still on the books but they are clearly an outlier when compared to the rest of the country so I recommend if you're from TX you do your own research and apply it to the flowchart to see how if fits.

    Texas Penal Code (2017)Chapter 9. Justifications Excluding Criminal Responsibility

    SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY

    Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.

    A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    13,970
    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    I’d recommend pause and re-reading your statutes.
    Done

    Florida law allows force, as long as it is not deadly force to protect property.

    776.031 Use or threatened use of force in defense of property.—(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.

    (2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
    History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1189, ch. 97-102; s. 3, ch. 2005-27; s. 5, ch. 2014-195.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,791
    Force and deadly Force are two different things...one can lead to the other but not the same.

    Texas law notwithstanding, you are walking a very tight rope using deadly force to protect stuff. I don't suggest it as a sound policy of learned people.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,323
    Things to consider about the defense of property--dogs to one side, as it's unclear whether the dog is your property or vice versa:

    -Is the property being taken capable of being used to harm others?
    Tools, firearms in a case or even in a safe that's been pried loose from the wall.
    I'm thinking here of coming upon a burglar or thief running with an axe, or a cased firearm, or a firearm or other weapon that is not being used as such but is readily deployable.

    -Does taking the property constitute an immediate threat to persons?
    Not too different from the above, but a thief holding a projectile weapon that is apparently ready for use.

    -Does the property being taken contain something that reasonably be foreseen to be a threat to persons?
    Say, a car that you know to contain loaded firearms, or a safe or case that may be unlocked that you know or reasonably believe holds firearms.
    Or: a vehicle containing an innocent person, whether able to resist or not, that is being carjacked.

    -Does the property as it is being used constitute an immediate threat to persons?
    A vehicle being driven recklessly: a car, a backhoe, a combine, whatever.

    Sorry for the lack of clarity, but I'm not using deadly force to stop the theft of a TV or a compressor unless we're dealing with civil unrest and I have a clear brief to the contrary.

    Zombie Apocalypse scenarios are another matter, as are the theft of food or water or a generator in certain types of disasters.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 11, 17. And a wakeup.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,791
    MINE

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Things to consider about the defense of property--dogs to one side, as it's unclear whether the dog is your property or vice versa:

    -Is the property being taken capable of being used to harm others?
    Tools, firearms in a case or even in a safe that's been pried loose from the wall.
    I'm thinking here of coming upon a burglar or thief running with an axe, or a cased firearm, or a firearm or other weapon that is not being used as such but is readily deployable.

    Then its not really a theft, but a murder/assault about to happen.

    -Does taking the property constitute an immediate threat to persons?
    Not too different from the above, but a thief holding a projectile weapon that is apparently ready for use.

    Then its not really a theft but a murder or assault about to happen

    -Does the property being taken contain something that reasonably be foreseen to be a threat to persons?
    Say, a car that you know to contain loaded firearms, or a safe or case that may be unlocked that you know or reasonably believe holds firearms.
    Or: a vehicle containing an innocent person, whether able to resist or not, that is being carjacked.

    Then its not really a theft but a murder or assault about to happen

    -Does the property as it is being used constitute an immediate threat to persons?
    A vehicle being driven recklessly: a car, a backhoe, a combine, whatever.

    Then its not really a theft but a murder or assault about to happen

    Sorry for the lack of clarity, but I'm not using deadly force to stop the theft of a TV or a compressor unless we're dealing with civil unrest and I have a clear brief to the contrary.

    Zombie Apocalypse scenarios are another matter, as are the theft of food or water or a generator in certain types of disasters.
    To steal the line from Captain Jack Sparrow - "The problem is not the problem, how you look at the problem and your attitude about the problem is the problem".

    And mine - Those without an imagination and a command of language will never be able to justify anything at all...in their own minds, or to others.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,323
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    MINE



    To steal the line from Captain Jack Sparrow - "The problem is not the problem, how you look at the problem and your attitude about the problem is the problem".

    And mine - Those without an imagination and a command of language will never be able to justify anything at all...in their own minds, or to others.
    Bravo. Next issue.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 11, 17. And a wakeup.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    13,970
    I really do not have anything about my place that is worth going to jail over. Life savings and such are in institutions. If one steals a $30k vehicle from me, that will hurt, but I am not shooting without there being a deadly threat. I may yell at them and such and if a weapon is displayed then I can shoot.

    My biggest problem would be someone showing up and actively shooting my dogs. Looking at the flow chart I do not see an obvious justification for shooting them unless I can foresee an immediate threat to myself in that I am to be the next victim of a deadly assault. That is something I need to ask an attorney about.



    Capture.jpg
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  8. #28
    Withholding immediate judgement against those who would harm ones dog does not preclude a more timely gratification.

    This is the ongoing dilemma between tactical and strategic considerations.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,791
    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    I really do not have anything about my place that is worth going to jail over. Life savings and such are in institutions. If one steals a $30k vehicle from me, that will hurt, but I am not shooting without there being a deadly threat. I may yell at them and such and if a weapon is displayed then I can shoot.

    My biggest problem would be someone showing up and actively shooting my dogs. Looking at the flow chart I do not see an obvious justification for shooting them unless I can foresee an immediate threat to myself in that I am to be the next victim of a deadly assault. That is something I need to ask an attorney about.
    So a hypothetical event.

    A dog owner sees a stranger shooting at his dogs. Knowing that he cannot use deadly force to protect his dogs since they are considered property under the law, the dog owner goes out to confront the property destroying dog shooter and yell at him to stop. He happens to be armed as he is 24-7-365. (Like it or not dog lovers, that is reality. You can say its wrong, you can say its unfair, you can say whatever you like but at the end of the day it is reality...accept it).

    Upon closing the distance the dog shooter sees the dog owner approaching and yelling, where upon he begins to bring his weapon to bear on the dog owner he turns. The event has now changed from a destruction of property, for which the law disallows deadly force, to a direct threat of deadly force on the dog owner. The dog owner realizes he is about to be shot and killed by the man who has already shown predilection for violence. He has no recourse but to defend himself resulting in the now-attacker being shot by the dog owner.

    "The problem is not the problem, how you look at the problem and your attitude about the problem is the problem".
    .
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #30
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    13,970
    That is likely the best answer.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •