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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Default THE FLOWCHART OF DEADLY FORCE

    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
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    64
    Gabe,

    I have been carefully studying the Flowchart of Deadly Force, and I have signed up for your Interview and Investigative Management Class in August 2019.

    In trying to "internalize" the chart for use, I had a few comments/questions:

    1) "Are you committing a crime" - Isn't it more accurate to say that you are INNOCENT with respect to THE EVENT? For example, you can't start a bar fight, then claim "self defense" if it escalates. You can't shoot someone in self defense while YOU are committing a burglary. However, if you are carrying illegally in a NPE environment, you are committing a crime, but you can still be justified using deadly force in self defense if an armed robber attacks you. Your crime was in no way related to the attack.

    2) This "innocence" with respect to the event must also apply to any others that you may want to help. Your "clear articulable perception of the events" must include that the you perceive the intended victims to be innocents. If the intended victims are not innocent with respect to the Event, then you are not justified in using lethal force, correct?

    3) The portion of the Flowchart AFTER your "clear and articulable perception" of events that an innocent person in in potentially lethal danger from the Event seems to mix and confound Legal Justification with your Decision Making/Tactics/Strategy. If you have a clear and articulable perception that an innocent person is in potentially lethal danger from the Event, then you are Justified in using Lethal Force. Period, end of Flowchart for Justification.

    Whether you CHOOSE to Engage, Escape, De-escalate, etc. does not affect the fact that deadly force was justified. For example, if you clearly see a criminal take an innocent person hostage, and hold a knife to their throat while threatening their life, then you ARE Justified to use Lethal Force. You may CHOOSE any path that you like - walk away, try to de-escalate and talk the situation down, shoot the bad guy in the face... All choices you can make, but it does not change the fact that you had legal Justification to use deadly force.

    I have modified the Chart for my own use based upon the above comments, any thoughts?:

    LETHAL_FORCE_FLOW_CHART_4.jpg

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    45,385
    MINE

    Quote Originally Posted by LV_MD View Post

    1) "Are you committing a crime"

    The reason for this was explained by an AZ LE. The right to self defense is gone if you are committing a crime that leads to the event. Its not carrying a gun in spite of the sign. It has more to do with whether you were attacked by a patron while robbing the store. The original was "Do You Have A Right To Be Where You Are?" Rather lengthy. For us, the item is irrelevant as I doubt we have many criminals on board. But to be thorough, it remained. Your innocense in relation to the attack is irrelevant if the reason you were attacked was as discussed.

    2) This "innocence" with respect to the event must also apply to any others that you may want to help. Your "clear articulable perception of the events" must include that the you perceive the intended victims to be innocents. If the intended victims are not innocent with respect to the Event, then you are not justified in using lethal force, correct?

    Which is why we clarify you having knowledge and reasonably no doubt about what is happening.

    3) The portion of the Flowchart AFTER your "clear and articulable perception" of events that an innocent person in in potentially lethal danger from the Event seems to mix and confound Legal Justification with your Decision Making/Tactics/Strategy. If you have a clear and articulable perception that an innocent person is in potentially lethal danger from the Event, then you are Justified in using Lethal Force. Period, end of Flowchart for Justification.

    Maybe. It is good practice to touch on preclusion...not for tactics but to get the mind accustomed to thinking like the antelope as well as the tiger. "I saw what looked like an innocent person being attacked with lethal force...AND MORALLY I COULD NOT LEAVE THEM TO BE KILLED...that sounds better later than "I saw what looked like an innocent person being attacked with lethal force, so I shot the bad guy". Think beyond the event. The flowchart gets you there, but also allows you to retrace the steps when giving the justification statement. Everything is there for a reason.

    Whether you CHOOSE to Engage, Escape, De-escalate, etc. does not affect the fact that deadly force was justified. For example, if you clearly see a criminal take an innocent person hostage, and hold a knife to their throat while threatening their life, then you ARE Justified to use Lethal Force. You may CHOOSE any path that you like - walk away, try to de-escalate and talk the situation down, shoot the bad guy in the face... All choices you can make, but it does not change the fact that you had legal Justification to use deadly force.

    See above

    I have modified the Chart for my own use based upon the above comments, any thoughts?:

    OK...I think ours flows better in regards to explaining your actions. There is a reason why there are low blocks before mid level punches in the basic kata. Learn them first, and the reason for the organization before modifying them, Killing the bad guy is really easy. Take my word for it. It is afterwards that guys have trouble because they either say nothing, or don't know the proper crafting of the statement.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Posts
    64
    Thanks!

    I was completely fixated on using the flow chart to guide my action...

    Now I understand that it is also there to explain my actions, after the last bang!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,712
    Quote Originally Posted by LV_MD View Post
    Thanks!

    I was completely fixated on using the flow chart to guide my action...

    Now I understand that it is also there to explain my actions, after the last bang!
    Don't forget that it's also there for a mental exercise for use day to day so you can observe events, run them through the flow chart, and decide what needs to change for you to be justified in shooting someone.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
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    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  6. #6
    My first time seeing this. I've spent many hours in classes around this topic and have not seen such a clear and easy to memorize and follow mental checklist.

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