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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    7,892
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilante View Post
    From the perspective of a nobody, I'm curious. The BG did a whole lot of resisting but I didn't really see him "fight" back. At one point he went for the officer's gun I guess?

    The point is, while the BG is not yet attacking, but simply resisting quite well, would the officers be allowed a fatal attack? Can you kill someone for being super good at resisting?

    I'm assuming that as long as the BG was not yet attacking, the officers simply couldn't apply excessive violence. The turning point would be going for the gun, then all bets are off right? If a BG goes for your (a cop's) gun, can they kill then? I assume so.

    Obviously the last thing the police force, or white cops, want in this political climate is to kill a black guy who was only "resisting". I'm sure they were doing everything they could to not cause permanent damage to the guy considering he was high as a kite.


    My second point is, when he finally ran back to the car to pull the gun, assuming the cops didn't know he had one, would it have been ok to kill him then? Besides the tussle going for the cop's gun, he still hadn't attacked yet, and appeared to be trying to escape. Can you kill someone for trying to run away from an arrest?


    In my mind there are two points where the dude should be killed, when he got hold of the cop's gun, and when it was identified he grabbed his own from the car, which would be very hard to wait for given their positioning at the time. But as for shooting him any other time, he was just resisting, and trying to get away. The media, the lawyers, everybody, would have a hey day with that. Headlines "Innocent black man killed by white cops for resisting police brutality..." etc

    Damn glad that I was out before cameras were in.

    90% of the people that I contacted would have called me "Officer Friendly" 10% not so much.

    40 years ago that POS would have had his noggin polished by hickory or flashlight and would have been in cuffs when he regained consciousness.

    Sad to see where police work has "evolved" perhaps "devolved" is a better word.

    Choirboy

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    113
    First pass, the bigger officer is not mentally engaged, he looks away, seemingly not for other threats, boredom maybe? The suspect begins to take the initiative away as soon as he begins walking towards the trunk. He gets ahead of the smaller officer forcing him to rush to keep up. This seems to allow him time to brace on the trunk prior to spinning. when he starts the fight. The bigger officer clearly does not know how to generate power, the strikes are made just with his arm without any body mechanics to transfer force. The smaller officer is by this time, behind the curve and has fallen into fear aggression.

    In similar circumstances, if at the suspects 3 or 9 o'clock I've knee spiked him in the thigh, grounded him and followed up as needed. The use of force report would document the suspect spinning towards me or my partner and attempting to disarm one of us as the justification for an immediate escalation in the use of force to prevent the suspect from killing us and members of the public.

    Jim Miller
    ISA 6:8

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,546
    There's an old joke that's not really a joke:

    "If violence isn't your last resort, you didn't resort to enough of it."

    I think that applies here.
    Armed Puritan

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    18
    Interesting facts in this article:

    https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/new..._troope_1.html

    The perp fired all six rounds from his .380, while the officers fired 20 and 21 rounds respectively. Twenty-eight slugs were found in the perp's car, including in the driver's seat headrest. The projectiles in the headrest may have been slowed or deflected by going through metal or glass, but that still shows less penetration than I would have expected. Maybe a little more penetration than the 12-18" recommended by the FBI is a good idea.

    I also note the "journalistic" cleanup of the perp's language. "I think I killed his ass" becomes "'I think I killed' him" in the article's headline. They did report the classic "I didn't do shit, man," as well as the possibly unprecedented "it's a real inconvenience to me" (concerning the damage 28 slugs did to his car) and the revisionist "I would have taken a fine like anyone else."

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    142
    230 Gold Dot. While some have had good luck with it, the ATK rep told me at a gel shoot that it is marginal. He was pushing 230 HST, which was the star of the show at the gel shoot. At another gel shoot, Mike Shovel from Cor-Bon told me he'd seen a round of 230 Gold Dot bounce off the sheet metal in the FBI sheet metal portion of gel testing. I would personally not carry 230 Gold Dot unless I had to.

    The real good round for vehicles is 230 Federal Tactical Bonded +P, but he told me Federal doesn't make too much of it. LAPD SIS uses it, as they are specialists in vehicle assaults. Or a solid copper round of course, like DPX.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,072
    A water heater tank is not a car door, but...

    Many years ago, in another life, we used to shoot all kinds of stuff when we went shooting. One day we came across a water heater tank someone had dumped by the road along the creek where we would go shooting.

    Results of my water heater tank test:
    .45 acp, Colt Combat Commander, 230 grain hardball - several rounds just made a dent and bounded off (didn't find any of them).
    .357 magnum, Ruger Speed Six, 2&3/4", 125 grain hollow points - every round went through the front of the tank and none passed through the back. They did raise up "pimples on the back side though.
    .44 magnum, S&W M29, 4" barrel, 240 grain LSWC/hard cast, every round went through both sides of the tank and kept on trucking into the bank behind it.

    .45 is a big slug, but it's not the best thing in the world to try to shoot through stuff with. Ain't that why the .38 Super came about in the first place? Those guys back in the 20's and 30's that didn't even have computers and gel testing new the .45 acp wouldn't get it done if you were shooting at vehicles. Why do we have to keep learning the same lessons?

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by choirboy View Post
    Damn glad that I was out before cameras were in.

    Choirboy
    CB I think you've uncovered the true root of the problem with today's reluctance with Officer's application and Use-of-Force.

    Years ago there were no Body Cameras, No POS Chiefs releasing OIS info right after the incident and No Social Media Court of Convicting Cops before the facts are gathered.

    IMHO most Officers today are SUBCONSCIOUSLY reluctant to take care of business, (i.e. use sufficient and overpowering force), because of the threat of Monday Morning Quarterbacking of their decision and UOF bacuse of the video memorization of UOF incidents.

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