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  1. #21
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    May 2000
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    Point for everyone to understand. Like it or not, fair or unfair, it is reality.

    You are an unknown and will not be afforded the same luxuries that a police officer takes advantage of when tje shooting takes place during work hours and is investigated by his own agency.

    Period...end of story. Ayoob or no Ayoob...lawyer or no lawyer.

    Dont give sufficient info to qualify as a victim and yoy automatically become a suspect...with all the courtesies afforded a suspect.

    Your attorney PREFERS YOU BEING A SUSPECT SO HE CAN MAKE FAR MORE MONEY DEFENDING YOU than solely sitting in on a secondary interview of a victim shooter.

    Why that simplicity is so difficult for some to grasp explains so much about human history.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #22
    Hi Gabe,

    Very good points.

    Question: when the police at the scene asks you what you did in response to what the perp did, how much detail should you give if anything, without an attorney present?

    Can you just say "I was forced to defend myself" without providing more details as to how it was done? My concern is the possibility of being charged with excessive force.

    Also let's say you are a martial artist with well conditioned shins, and you kick someone in the leg with the shin only making contact [not the shoe] with the target...can you still be charged with 'shod foot' attack even if your shoe never touches the assailant?

    Thank you,

    Flying Dutchman

  3. #23
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    May 2000
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    Mine in bold

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman View Post
    Hi Gabe,

    Very good points.

    Question: when the police at the scene asks you what you did in response to what the perp did, how much detail should you give if anything, without an attorney present?

    Understand that the investigation, processing of the scene and assignment of category for you will not wait for your attorney to arrive. Things will process at the speed which they are processed and nothing you can do to change that. And unless you give a compelling reason to be listed as Victim, you will default to Suspect. That said, unless it is some sort of unusual event, or questionable (in your mind) shooting, I am not concerned about anything my attorney could possibly add or anything he could possibly assist with. I am a victim and my actions bear that out. I will tell them what I saw, why I arrived at the conclusions I did, and why there was no alternative but for me to kill the bad guy. All the stuff that is in the flowchart. And I am not going to wait to do that.

    Can you just say "I was forced to defend myself" without providing more details as to how it was done? My concern is the possibility of being charged with excessive force.

    No you can't. If you tell me that I will begin suspecting some skullduggery is going on and begin to think of you as a suspect. I will probably ask, "What happened that you were forced?". I might even speak very plainly and say, "Look...this looks like a legit self defense shooting, but unless you give me more than 'I was forced to defend myself', I am going to list you as a suspect in my report.

    Did you read the preceding stuff we wrote on this subject?

    Also let's say you are a martial artist with well conditioned shins, and you kick someone in the leg with the shin only making contact [not the shoe] with the target...can you still be charged with 'shod foot' attack even if your shoe never touches the assailant?

    Please read everything in this section. I think you are reading a little too much into this stuff and coming at the problem from the liabity-focused world most gun guys start from. It really is not that complicated and unless you are out looking for shit to get into, being charged with anything is the last thing to worry about. Read.

    Thank you,

    Flying Dutchman
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
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    684
    I’m not trying to be rude here but I also don’t really care because I’m here to learn.

    However, I can’t fathom why somebody would come to a classroom as it were and argue with the teacher. Especially a teacher...multiple teachers...with experience. It takes away from the learning environment.

    This is not only solid advice but seems a little like common sense; you were attacked. You’re clearly the victim. Let the police know. It’ll make your life a lot easier in the following days. Not EASY. Easier.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Chris

  5. #25
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    May 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopherloaf View Post
    I’m not trying to be rude here but I also don’t really care because I’m here to learn.

    However, I can’t fathom why somebody would come to a classroom as it were and argue with the teacher. Especially a teacher...multiple teachers...with experience. It takes away from the learning environment.

    This is not only solid advice but seems a little like common sense; you were attacked. You’re clearly the victim. Let the police know. It’ll make your life a lot easier in the following days. Not EASY. Easier.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yeah...the problem with modern social media and the notion that every opinion is as valid as any other. Maybe I have been teaching too long. Maybe I assume the things we have known here for a decade are easily read, easily researched and common knowledge. Maybe I should not assume. Maybe I should just not give a sh*t anymore.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    684
    I’m also looking at it from the point of a teacher. How would I feel if students came in my class and just argued with everything I tried to teach them? Oh wait, I don’t because it’s rude and inconsiderate to come to a place to learn only to argue the validity of the material.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Chris

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    262
    My CCW class consisted of the instructor whining for several hours on how you would spend a fortune on lawyer fees to exonerate yourself after killing a bad guy and lose your house in a civil lawsuit. Everything was doom and gloom. I've taken two Killing within The Law classes and they were the exact opposite of the "you are going to lose everything" and "feel really bad" after a justified shoot. The classes give you a detailed system of navigating your way through the aftermath of a shootout and in my opinion are superior to anything I have read by Massad Ayoob or seen in his video lectures. Most importantly, the self-image as a Gentleman Killer is conveyed; as opposed to Ayoob's "I carry a gun, but never want to use it because I will feel bad and suffer PTSD if I use it in legitimate self-defense" mentality.

    Massad Ayoob's ideas on a gunfight and its aftermath seems to be a reflection of his own self-image. His dad and grandpa iced their attackers with firearms but he hopes never to have the "Mark of Cain" by taking the life of a depraved human being. Therefore everyone should feel the same way. See statements and links below.

    Ayoob hopes never to have to fire at what he will always refer to as "a predator," and his reasons are deeply personal. Both his grandfather, in Syria, and his father, in Boston, were shopkeepers. Both were shot and maimed by assailants whom they themselves were then forced to shoot dead. Both men bore the scars of having killed for the rest of their lives.


    "I want this mark of Cain off the Ayoob family name," he says. "Yes, I would shoot to rescue the innocent, but there is no glory in it. Only pain."


    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...055-story.html

    "On 6 occasions he had the right to shoot them but did not. In Ayoob’s view, the difference between him and his forefathers is training. He also very much wants to go to his deathbed without killing another human being, to remove the Mark of Cain from his family name."

    https://gunculture2point0.wordpress....d-citizenship/

  8. #28
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    Aug 2014
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    3,023
    response deleted-the articles are from 1994 and 2012.
    Last edited by Papa; 12-20-2018 at 05:13 AM.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I ride the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer

    "Can I move?...I'm better when I move."

    1, 3, 07. And a wakeup.

  9. #29
    Join Date
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    Contrast that with our ethos. Every man that teaches that class has served in Law Enforcement investigating homicides. Every man that teaches that class has killed bad guys, a couple of us multiple times. None of us suffers from PTSD, rather we are glad to have been there to kill those bad guys and feel great about having done so. Rather than a mark of Cain, we see it is as badge of honor. To have run to the guns when others were fleeing, to have stood against evil and ended its predations...and to have prevailed not by happenstance but by our own skilled hands. Noteworthy indeed.

    And then having the experience of multiple officer involved shooting investigations, and I think we can tell you this simply and positively - Ayoob is wrong.

    So the question is this - who do you want to be?
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Western Montana
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    3,073
    It's funny that when you are young it seems you are either a conformist or a rebel. You either go along with everything you are told or want to argue/discuss it. The older I get the more I want to just shut up and listen when something important is being said and for the most part keep my opinions to myself. Especially if I have little experience and until I've had enough time to reason things out. Teachers usually don't have that luxury.
    Is God Politically Correct? If not should you be? - F. Huff -- God is unchanging in His love. He loves you. He has a plan for your life. Don't let the newspaper headlines frighten you. God is still sovereign; He's still on the throne. - B. Graham -- No statement should be believed because it is made by an authority. - Robert A. Heinlein

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