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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    UNited States
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    125
    People are mentioning the 9MM EVO use for home defense....why not use the shotgun for an immediate stop on a determined attacker that forces themselves through the front door?
    Or will body armor stop shotgun too?

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    44,301
    You are not new and we HAVE discussed this many times - here...read this stuff

    1). If you are alone in your AO, the shotgun's pattern spread is an asset.
    2). If your AO is populated by others and you want surgical precision, the 9mm is better
    3). Nothing defeats armor...the better the armor the harder it is to defeat.
    4). Everything is a head shot

    I SUGGEST A THOROUGH PERUSAL OF THE INFORMATION BELOW

    GABE'S MATERIAL ON THE ROLE OF THE SHOTGUN ON THE BLOG


    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Manistee MI
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    1,362
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertGuy View Post
    People are mentioning the 9MM EVO use for home defense....why not use the shotgun for an immediate stop on a determined attacker that forces themselves through the front door?
    Or will body armor stop shotgun too?
    From all the testing I've seen, soft armor defeats a shotty, but man does it have to hurt.

    Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
    Abortion is sacrificing your child on the alter of convenience....Adrian Rogers
    Soli Deo Gloria

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
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    5,664
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuvuah View Post
    From all the testing I've seen, soft armor defeats a shotty, but man does it have to hurt.

    Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
    Shotgun might not “defeat” soft armor, but that doesn’t mean you will be effective after getting hit by it. When we tested armor at the last shotgun class, a surgeon in attendance stated the hit would probably result in a cardiac event.

    In any event, our default position is to go for the headshot unless time and distance dictate otherwise. And the shotgun is not the point of this thread anyway.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuvuah View Post
    From all the testing I've seen, soft armor defeats a shotty, but man does it have to hurt.

    Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
    Yes soft armor defeats slugs and buck penetration (Lvl 3, concealable). That being said when we tested it, the back deformation was significant and dented the 2x4 about an 1/8" and second hit split the board along the grain.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Manistee MI
    Posts
    1,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    Yes soft armor defeats slugs and buck penetration (Lvl 3, concealable). That being said when we tested it, the back deformation was significant and dented the 2x4 about an 1/8" and second hit split the board along the grain.
    It's not something I ever want to experience

    Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
    Abortion is sacrificing your child on the alter of convenience....Adrian Rogers
    Soli Deo Gloria

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuvuah View Post
    It's not something I ever want to experience

    Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
    It's not one I'd care to repeat.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    4,146
    Ok curiosity got the best of me and a few orders later Im ready to start. Based on other determination letters, approval seems to be on marketed use with a few "guidelines" one of those appears to be that ATF gets leery when the length of the brace in the used position exceeds 13.5 inches or so.

    The shown brace is less than 12 inches in assembled and used format and uses a smaller footprint at the endpoint than the original USW system. Determination letter is still being drafted with the below as a rough draft of the first part of the letter. Pictures give you an indication of size and "footprint" of a Sig 320 carry incorporating this brace. Fire control unit WAS NOT INSTALLED (hence the tape holding the slide in position) pending determination (though a determination is NOT required by ATF "at your own risk") . Submitted product will be clearly marked on the body as a stabilizing brace and the rest of the body may or may not be included with the brace for evaluation (still discussing with counsel) . I REALLY wish this could be adapted for Glock systems (but the lack of removable fire control unit makes this unlikely)

    Lots of possibilities out there

    To: ATF
    From: coastalcop
    Subject: Determination letter for arm/stabilizing brace

    Recently the United States Army Selected a variation of the Sig Sauer 320 pistol as the new service pistol for Army personnel with other branches of the Armed Forces apparently following suit.. This was given the M17/M18 service pistol identifier by the US Army.

    We have found that with other bracing/stabilizing systems (SB and Shockwave as two examples) Disabled service members seem to gravitate to pistols and rifles that are already known to them and share a similar manual of arms to what they used while active duty.

    To that end I developed the included brace/stabilizer. The arm brace/stabliizer attachment to the pistol is left to the end user (though there are a number of aftermarket manufacturers that this brace could interact with) and the brace rides alongside the inside of the forearm (as shown in the pictures) The brace can be augmented by the included strap to secure it to the inside of the forearm, providing stability to a shooter with compromised hand, wrist, or arm strength and allowing for more accurate fire as a result. The brace is designed to make the smallest footprint possible (to retain as much dignity as possible for the disabled/injured soldier), while still allowing for enough contact with the forearm to have a positive effect on accuracy.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,345
    I don't hate it but I've never spent any time with one.

    But (I know those weigh heavy) are you comparing to the Glock PDW concept or the PCC? My comments on the PDW vs. PCC will still stand.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    4,146
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    I don't hate it but I've never spent any time with one.

    But (I know those weigh heavy) are you comparing to the Glock PDW concept or the PCC? My comments on the PDW vs. PCC will still stand.

    PCC is going to be more robust, no doubt and you will have enough "floorspace to mount things AND keep your lead hand away from the dangerous stuff.

    On the PDW side the brace is very stable with no real flex and the size brings the original Scorpion machine pistols to mind only in 9mm, and with less flex in the brace.

    Weight is probably an ounce maybe two over the standard pistol with an additional width of about 1/2 inch.

    Its early in the game for viability, though I may just file through the SOT to free up additional testing of an unmodified unit while awaiting the word from ATF. Having used both the Glock PDW format and handled this one, I see the use of both (providing the brace is approved) and informal testing indicates that my snapfront 5:11 shirts allow for appendix carry in the stowed position. If there is an additional downside, its that there is an additional 2 1/2 inches of beavertail that is always a part of the overall footprint, with the brace stowed or not. Upside is that it is always with the pistol and can be deployed in under a second.

    Still a niche system, and given the option of any of the three for door kicking I would take the EVO hands down, its robust, reliable, accurate, and has good capacity on board.

    Roaming around a hotel or apartment complex and the adjacent parking lot incognito as part or a capture team or buy bust support team, the sig system would have several advantages (provided that the slide was machined for an RMR and reliability is proven) or stowed in the center console of your ride as it can be used in either configuration without issue.

    The glock PDW allows for multiple systems, uses an already approved brace, and allows for factory magazines with 30+ capacity . Its also a Glock with the inherent reliability, accuracy and track record that the 320 is still working on (also a lower bore axis)
    Last edited by coastalcop; 08-07-2018 at 09:51 AM.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

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