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Thread: E & E Weapons

  1. #1
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    Default E & E Weapons

    In a recent thread concerning a possible Air Force (ejection seat) survival weapon, the conversation turned to problems with the current proposal and other options. The first issue was should the weapon be a FIGHTING tool or a SURVIVAL tool...or something of both. Its the both that seems to present the biggest issue. There doesn't seem to be a good balance that swings far enough to both ends.

    Some precepts are that whatever tool is chosen it must be small and so must the ammo, so that sufficient quantities can be carried. Another strong suggestion is that a suppressor should be available, perhaps integral for simplicity and (maybe) better performance. Then there are the questions of whether it should be concealable or have some sort of available stock

    Greg suggested a 22LR Hush Puppy style pistol and I have a hard time arguing against it for everything BUT its limited power. Conversely my suggestion of something like a FN57 pistol has its own problems. While the 5.7 pistol is more powerful at the same time it is harder to suppress, as in cant be suppressed anywhere near the quietness of a 22LR. Honestly I do think being quiet is probably most important; but quiet without power leaves me wanting. Were it not for the size issue of the gun AND ammo, I might opt for a 45acp; but I really do believe the ability to "hump" a large quantity of ammo is a serious concern/requirement. Likewise power, as in power to kill quickly and with less than bad breath/contact shots seems important too.

    A couple of points regarding shooting living things with suppressed weapons. First of course is anything moving faster than 1100 FPS will produce a sonic crack, not as loud as a "gun shot" but certainly loud enough to say WTF. Second and seemingly just as important; things that get shot, that don't die immediately tend to make a LOT of noise. I wont speak to humans; but when shooting Wild Boar with a suppressed weapon, if they don't die immediately, they DO tend to alert their friends....

    During WW2 the Brits played with the 32acp in the WELROD. The 32acp ammo is small and it was by all accounts very quiet but Im thinking hardly more powerful than 22LR when it comes to killing quickly at more than across the room distance. Remember while we aren't looking for a FIGHTING pistol, we do want it to kill quickly. The Soviets updated the old Stechkin stocked pistol by replacing the large wooden holster/stock with a much smaller wire stock and a suppressor, they also added a suppressor. In fairness the updated design isn't/wasnt intended for a E&E pistol The Stechkin is 9mm Mak (9x18), its more powerful than 22LR, and 32acp; but a bit larger.

    So then what is the best balance. For us mere mortals, we are unlikely to come up with a new wildcat round; but the military certainly could request something purpose built.

    Whatdaya think? Is QUIET shooting more important? Is a quick kill with "limited" noise the answer? Magazine capacity seems less important than the ability to carry lots of ammo in pockets, hmmmmm?

    Consider when shooting a dog etc to avoid detection, wailing and whimpering that may follow from not making a quick kill is just as bad as barking -- maybe worse.

  2. #2
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    I think the issue is perspective. You're thinking E&E as a war fighting skill instead of a survival skill. It's not about fighting your way out of an E&E predicament and if you're busted you're better off being taken into custody and attempting to escape later than you are to fight your way free.

    Now I would caveat this in radical Islamic nations/nation states as the likelihood of having your head cut off on the internet is far higher. In that environment I'd rather sling some lead to entice them to shoot me to death, or just simplify it and do what that Russian pilot did and carry a grenade in my pocket.
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    C.E. Harris has written a few articles making a good case for keeping a .38 Special service revolver in your go bag. I usually just have my carry 9mm.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solothurn View Post
    C.E. Harris has written a few articles making a good case for keeping a .38 Special service revolver in your go bag. I usually just have my carry 9mm.
    I see that kind of thing as completely different. I see E&E from a ground insertion to a bad area and an airborne insertion to be completely different animals due to the ability to pack, carry, and access the different tools and the likelihood of loss of those tools from an airframe.
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  5. #5
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    If I were an Airman, I would vote for the FN57 pistol with a direct-thread suppressor. I would want a normal holster, and would not plan to carry it with the can attached, but would want the option of attaching the can if I were hunting game. If I got to have my full fantasy, I would also have a P90 to match it. In that case, I'd run the can on the P90.

    I've come around to the thinking that subsonic ammo just isn't worth it. Unless you are in a very specialized role, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. Suppressing supersonic ammo is still very effective. The supersonic crack, while audible, is far less a problem than the muzzle report. I'd rather have a full 5.56, but that requires a much larger gun, and the ammo wouldn't be compatible with a sidearm. While a rimfire would be the quietest option, I would want more power than it provides.

    While an ejection seat clearly places constraints on what can be carried, there are a multitude of options that are all an improvement over an airweight revolver.
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    To not define things further would be foolish. Things like support and expected rescue can make a dramatic difference. Even just the suspected response time can have an impact. Every niche has caviates.
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    Everywhere I go I have a Glock 9mm with Suarez Essentials and a couple of extra magazines. Regardless of other weapons I may or may not have access to, I will have a Go-Bag with a few important items to include cash, and a second pistol in the same caliber that takes the same magazines as my primary.
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    a WISE policy....
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  9. #9
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    I don't know what the AAR data is on downed pilots and use of firearms, so I speak from ignorance. It seems to me that if there is room/weight capacity in the aircraft bailout kit for a small non-M4 rifle, then P90 with a couple of 50 rd mags seems prudent. Otherwise an RMR Glock with 3-4 mags.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    I think the issue is perspective. You're thinking E&E as a war fighting skill instead of a survival skill....
    Well yes and no. YES it does seem like the big part of Escape and Evade for a downed pilot is EVADE. That being said I suspect the Evading wont be as simple as just not encountering people. If it were that easy then a compass would be the primary tool (maybe it is?). Once we accept that the chances of some human encounter is possible (actually beyond possible to likely), than some sort of fighting enters the mix.

    If simply surrendering when spotted, were possible then maybe a 22LR for gathering food would be enough; but Id suggest the current enemy isn't one Id relish surrendering nor would I expect being treated as a POW by the rules of war. Soooo some greater/quicker lethality is needed. Its needed not only for humans; but also for guard animals AND if we accept the "Hollywood" quiet isn't needed (although preferred), than a heavier hitting cartridge is needed

    Again Im not fixated on the 5.7 cartridge; I just don't know of anything better that fits the lightweight requirement, size requirement, and lethality requirement. Im not sure Id want a P90 for the pilot bailout role. Instead Id opt for a wire stock for a FN57 type pistol. Im also not sure I see a reason for it not to be integrally suppressed; but Im open to a QD mount with a separate suppressor to make multiple smaller packages rather than one larger package...

    If Im full of shite as Im sure some have though/think and a suppressed 22LR is the best option, then why not something even smaller than like say a Beretta 21a with a Nano type micro suppressor.

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